4 ms·

At this point, Liberty Phone / Librem 5 has an advantage of actually existing. We'll see what the future brings though :)

wakawaka28 2y ago
Librem 5 is a well-documented scam. Some people have gotten phones but Purism has made most people wait for years with no delivery. The ship date always sounds just a couple of months out and they keep pushing it out. If you ask for a refund, they'll try to bullshit you various ways. It's been a couple of years since I washed my hands of them and had my bank force them to refund me. But I waited almost 2 years myself. When I did research, I found people who had been waiting for 5 years. The only people reliably getting the phones were social media influencers. I'm not about to try to order another one.
- seba_dos1 2y ago
  Librem 5 caught massive delays, but eventually all of the phones had been produced and shipped to people who bought them and they've been available off-the-shelf for a good while now. While I'm not exactly happy with how some events around that project unfolded, it doesn't really fit my definition of a scam either, sorry.
  - wakawaka28 2y ago
    I doubt everyone who ordered a phone got one, and a years-long delay is not acceptable if they put a ship date on their website of only a few months in the future. I found accounts of people who were told that the phone would ship imminently who were forced to wait 5 years and still didn't have the damn phone, and couldn't get a refund. Here's someone posting one month ago about their horrible experience: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1he60ub/purism_refund_policy_anyone_else_has_similar/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1he60ub/purism_refu... Here's another thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1dkr086/is_purism_a_bit_scammy/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1dkr086/is_purism_a... Several comments suggest reporting them to the FTC (a move I made myself!). Another one 10 months ago, someone not getting responses from them anymore: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1be3r74/still_silence/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1be3r74/still_silen... I'm telling you it's a scam from first-hand experience. You can buy a Linux PinePhone for about $200, and that was available within a year of announcement and within a month of ordering, and it was announced after the $700 non-US Librem 5. I got one while waiting for the Librem 5. Now I know you're gonna say "But Purism has custom hardware, it's not the same..." But the fact is that they misled everyone and probably mismanaged their money. A "preorder" is not the same as an "investment" or "donation" and comes with concrete obligations. They lied over and over and I documented it all for my bank, to get the refund that Purism denied me. They literally told me I had to wait for my number to come up in line. If I trusted them to ever ship the phone, I might as well take the damn phone at that point. So sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. I don't take calling something a scam lightly, and I believe that the way Purism operated (if not the way they still operate) meets the definition.
    - seba_dos1 2y ago
      > So sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. I know very well what I'm talking about. I backed the original campaign and later used to work on its software; I know where the delays came from, I know how badly managed the communication around them was, how many of its problems were self-imposed and, roughly, how much money Purism lost on this whole endeavor. Nevertheless, it delivered; the majority of preorders have been fulfilled in 2022 (3 years after the initial estimated shipping date) and all remaining ones in 2023, and there's a surplus of phones in stock since then. The only people who haven't received their phones yet are those that either couldn't be contacted anymore, explicitly asked not to ship yet or requested a refund (and that last group is who you keep seeing the complaints from). One of the main problems with this project was how stupid its refund policy was, which combined with its delays led to the company eventually refusing to issue them and scaling down to a skeleton crew just to keep afloat and deliver. It did deliver though, I still consider it the best GNU/Linux phone out there even though it's getting rather dated now.
      - wakawaka28 2y ago
        > I backed the original campaign and later used to work on its software; I know where the delays came from, I know how badly managed the communication around the project was, how many of its problems were self-imposed and, roughly, how much money Purism lost on this whole endeavor. It's not just "bad communication" -- they broke the law. One person's "bad communication" is another person's "contract fraud." Seriously. I was totally ok with waiting several months for the product, but based on the timeline that you yourself have proposed I would have needed to wait from the time of my order in 2019 (a couple of years after they started taking orders!) to 2022 or even 2023 for my order that I paid for and was told would be delivered in 3 months. At some point, you have to pull the trigger on getting a refund, because your legal rights have a time limit on them as well. I don't think you could get a refund for something that you preordered 10 years ago. Furthermore, why the fuck would anyone wait so many years to get a phone which may rapidly become obsolete? To be clear, the time limit to get a refund on a credit card transaction is generally 6 months. My bank made an exception for my case, and might have even taken the hit out of pocket to Purism's benefit (though I think they have the power to not do it, as it's a big bank). >Nevertheless, it delivered; the majority of preorders have been fulfilled in 2022 (3 years after the initial estimated shipping date) and all remaining ones in 2023, and there's a surplus of phones in stock since then. The only people who haven't received their phones yet are those that either couldn't be contacted anymore, explicitly asked not to ship yet or requested a refund. Unless you work there I don't think you can possibly know this. >The main problem with this project was how stupid its refund policy was, which combined with the delays led to the company eventually refusing to issue them and scaling down to a skeleton crew just to keep afloat and deliver. It did deliver though, I still consider it the best GNU/Linux phone out there even though it's getting rather dated now. No, the main problem with the project was that they didn't ship the fucking phones. Purism sent phones to social media influencers, which drove people to the website that perpetually said the phone was shipping within 3 months. Meanwhile they took everyone's money and tried to weasel out of their obligations, and pissed off even the geekiest people who wanted the phone the most. That's all it takes to destroy your reputation. How many years will it be before their customer base can trust them again? I will probably never buy another one of their phones, because I can't be sure I'll EVER get it. And if you can't trust them on that, can you really trust them on any other issue? I just casually looked and found someone suing them this year for breach of contract: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/56159803/Thier_et_al_v_Purism,_SPC https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/56159803/Thier_et_a... I didn't download the documents (I'd probably have to pay for them), but there you go. I think there is reason to believe that some people unsatisfied with what Purism is doing to this day. Lying will do that. I think the people who buy Linux phones are pretty generous and tolerant of faults in hardware and software, so it takes a lot for there to be so much bitterness against a company that allegedly does well. Here's a post about a class-action lawsuit on Reddit, not the only one either: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/16cn3of/waiting_for_a_refund_classaction_lawsuit/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/16cn3of/waiting_for... By the way, I got an email like that but it did not offer store credit. It only said I had to wait an indefinite amount of time for my place to come up in the shipping queue or something, to get a REFUND (which I am legally entitled to). Here's a rant by their former marketing director about why he doesn't think it's worth buying the US version (at least): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIWYN00ssY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIWYN00ssY8 I think he's ranted about Purism in another video, but I can't find it. Here's one from Louis Rossman, a man who initially supported Purism, in which he calls it a scam: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s https://youtube.com/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s The person he knows who has firsthand knowledge of Purism, which he cannot disclose, is likely his current employer (a pro-FOSS philanthropist and entrepreneur).

wakawaka28 2y ago

Librem 5 is a well-documented scam. Some people have gotten phones but Purism has made most people wait for years with no delivery. The ship date always sounds just a couple of months out and they keep pushing it out. If you ask for a refund, they'll try to bullshit you various ways. It's been a couple of years since I washed my hands of them and had my bank force them to refund me. But I waited almost 2 years myself. When I did research, I found people who had been waiting for 5 years. The only people reliably getting the phones were social media influencers. I'm not about to try to order another one.

seba_dos1 2y ago
Librem 5 caught massive delays, but eventually all of the phones had been produced and shipped to people who bought them and they've been available off-the-shelf for a good while now. While I'm not exactly happy with how some events around that project unfolded, it doesn't really fit my definition of a scam either, sorry.
- wakawaka28 2y ago
  I doubt everyone who ordered a phone got one, and a years-long delay is not acceptable if they put a ship date on their website of only a few months in the future. I found accounts of people who were told that the phone would ship imminently who were forced to wait 5 years and still didn't have the damn phone, and couldn't get a refund. Here's someone posting one month ago about their horrible experience: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1he60ub/purism_refund_policy_anyone_else_has_similar/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1he60ub/purism_refu... Here's another thread: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1dkr086/is_purism_a_bit_scammy/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1dkr086/is_purism_a... Several comments suggest reporting them to the FTC (a move I made myself!). Another one 10 months ago, someone not getting responses from them anymore: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1be3r74/still_silence/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1be3r74/still_silen... I'm telling you it's a scam from first-hand experience. You can buy a Linux PinePhone for about $200, and that was available within a year of announcement and within a month of ordering, and it was announced after the $700 non-US Librem 5. I got one while waiting for the Librem 5. Now I know you're gonna say "But Purism has custom hardware, it's not the same..." But the fact is that they misled everyone and probably mismanaged their money. A "preorder" is not the same as an "investment" or "donation" and comes with concrete obligations. They lied over and over and I documented it all for my bank, to get the refund that Purism denied me. They literally told me I had to wait for my number to come up in line. If I trusted them to ever ship the phone, I might as well take the damn phone at that point. So sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. I don't take calling something a scam lightly, and I believe that the way Purism operated (if not the way they still operate) meets the definition.
  - seba_dos1 2y ago
    > So sorry, you don't know what you're talking about. I know very well what I'm talking about. I backed the original campaign and later used to work on its software; I know where the delays came from, I know how badly managed the communication around them was, how many of its problems were self-imposed and, roughly, how much money Purism lost on this whole endeavor. Nevertheless, it delivered; the majority of preorders have been fulfilled in 2022 (3 years after the initial estimated shipping date) and all remaining ones in 2023, and there's a surplus of phones in stock since then. The only people who haven't received their phones yet are those that either couldn't be contacted anymore, explicitly asked not to ship yet or requested a refund (and that last group is who you keep seeing the complaints from). One of the main problems with this project was how stupid its refund policy was, which combined with its delays led to the company eventually refusing to issue them and scaling down to a skeleton crew just to keep afloat and deliver. It did deliver though, I still consider it the best GNU/Linux phone out there even though it's getting rather dated now.
    - wakawaka28 2y ago
      > I backed the original campaign and later used to work on its software; I know where the delays came from, I know how badly managed the communication around the project was, how many of its problems were self-imposed and, roughly, how much money Purism lost on this whole endeavor. It's not just "bad communication" -- they broke the law. One person's "bad communication" is another person's "contract fraud." Seriously. I was totally ok with waiting several months for the product, but based on the timeline that you yourself have proposed I would have needed to wait from the time of my order in 2019 (a couple of years after they started taking orders!) to 2022 or even 2023 for my order that I paid for and was told would be delivered in 3 months. At some point, you have to pull the trigger on getting a refund, because your legal rights have a time limit on them as well. I don't think you could get a refund for something that you preordered 10 years ago. Furthermore, why the fuck would anyone wait so many years to get a phone which may rapidly become obsolete? To be clear, the time limit to get a refund on a credit card transaction is generally 6 months. My bank made an exception for my case, and might have even taken the hit out of pocket to Purism's benefit (though I think they have the power to not do it, as it's a big bank). >Nevertheless, it delivered; the majority of preorders have been fulfilled in 2022 (3 years after the initial estimated shipping date) and all remaining ones in 2023, and there's a surplus of phones in stock since then. The only people who haven't received their phones yet are those that either couldn't be contacted anymore, explicitly asked not to ship yet or requested a refund. Unless you work there I don't think you can possibly know this. >The main problem with this project was how stupid its refund policy was, which combined with the delays led to the company eventually refusing to issue them and scaling down to a skeleton crew just to keep afloat and deliver. It did deliver though, I still consider it the best GNU/Linux phone out there even though it's getting rather dated now. No, the main problem with the project was that they didn't ship the fucking phones. Purism sent phones to social media influencers, which drove people to the website that perpetually said the phone was shipping within 3 months. Meanwhile they took everyone's money and tried to weasel out of their obligations, and pissed off even the geekiest people who wanted the phone the most. That's all it takes to destroy your reputation. How many years will it be before their customer base can trust them again? I will probably never buy another one of their phones, because I can't be sure I'll EVER get it. And if you can't trust them on that, can you really trust them on any other issue? I just casually looked and found someone suing them this year for breach of contract: https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/56159803/Thier_et_al_v_Purism,_SPC https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/56159803/Thier_et_a... I didn't download the documents (I'd probably have to pay for them), but there you go. I think there is reason to believe that some people unsatisfied with what Purism is doing to this day. Lying will do that. I think the people who buy Linux phones are pretty generous and tolerant of faults in hardware and software, so it takes a lot for there to be so much bitterness against a company that allegedly does well. Here's a post about a class-action lawsuit on Reddit, not the only one either: https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/16cn3of/waiting_for_a_refund_classaction_lawsuit/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/16cn3of/waiting_for... By the way, I got an email like that but it did not offer store credit. It only said I had to wait an indefinite amount of time for my place to come up in the shipping queue or something, to get a REFUND (which I am legally entitled to). Here's a rant by their former marketing director about why he doesn't think it's worth buying the US version (at least): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIWYN00ssY8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIWYN00ssY8 I think he's ranted about Purism in another video, but I can't find it. Here's one from Louis Rossman, a man who initially supported Purism, in which he calls it a scam: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s https://youtube.com/watch?v=wKegmu0V75s The person he knows who has firsthand knowledge of Purism, which he cannot disclose, is likely his current employer (a pro-FOSS philanthropist and entrepreneur).