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I think you're unaware of just how aggressive China is. Look at their neighbours and their policies - they don't have a single friend because everyone is afraid

I think you're unaware of just how aggressive China is. Look at their neighbours and their policies - they don't have a single friend because everyone is afraid of their bullying behaviour backed up by their military. Look at conquered regions like Tibet and Xinjiang. Look at how they set up police forces in foreign countries to keep an eye on Chinese citizens living abroad. Even having kidnapped and illegally held Chinese citizens in England because they posted anti-CCP messages on WeChat. Look at countries like the Phillipines (not even a direct neighbour) who are trying to hold on to small fishing islands just off their coast because the CCP claimed those islands in the 1970s. Remember a few years ago when they ran a week long military exercise around Taiwan... because a US representative spoke to the Taiwanese president. Sure I agree with you that the US also overstepped a line here, but for your response to be shelling the waters around the island is excessive to say the least. Look at the aggressive nationalist and imperialist news they feed their own population, and the propaganda spread to make the Japanese seem like demons. Did you know there are several theme parks in China where children are encouraged to Bayonette a mannequin of Japanese Imperialist soldiers? Call the US as bad as you like, but I've never seen a theme park where children are actively taught how to kill and demonise the Taliban or Nazis.

spencerflem 2y ago
You could say all of that about the American empire. We renamed it to the Gulf of America, talk about annexing Canada, own Hawaii, fund the colony of Israel, invented Manifest Destony, destabilize democracy via the CIA, firebombed Vietnam, etc etc etc And don't talk to me abt Chinese spying when the NSA and Five Eyes hoovers up and processes the entire internet. Re: propaganda, read your own comment. The American propaganda machine got you to demonize China pretty well And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its insane!
- miningape 2y ago
  In general I do agree (except for the recent Canada stuff - I believe it's more of a bluff than anything else) But I want to respond to this: > And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its insane 1. The US publically acknowledges who is in prison, China doesn't. You can be disappeared in China without anyone knowing. 2. The Chinese operate several Black prisons both within and without their borders. These are Prisons without actual sentences, laws or rights. The public doesn't even know of their existence. This is where you land up as a political prisoner in China. 3. The Chinese have placed thousands of Uigur muslims in "re-education camps" (not prisons) - many of whom are only guilty by association (i.e. there's no direct crime the CCP arrested them for, other than being a blood relative of someone who did commit one of these "crimes") 4. Chinese police are already spread thin enough dealing with all the political prisoners meaning there are many dangerous criminals who are freely committing crimes in China. The CCP keeps this information under tight wraps so as not to cause a panic. As a result the Chinese are a lot less cautious than they should be so (unofficial) crime levels are much higher than they should be. It's not uncommon to hear of (or see) Children who were kidnapped and had their limbs chopped off so they could beg more effectively - there has never been a widespread crackdown on this behaviour and many perpetrators are still walking the streets forcing children to beg for them. 5. Not to even talk about the prison organ harvesting claims made by several groups who have been persecuted by the CCP. From Falun Gong practitioners to Uigur muslims. Also don't be lazy and just call this propaganda - I could easily do the same with other messages in this thread ("CCP propaganda") meaning it's not a strong argument to anyone on the fence / on the other side. Yes, it is very anti-China, but that's because I'm trying to bring it in contrast to the very anti-US message. I don't think either country is perfect and in fact I prefer to not live in (or near) either.
  - guappa 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - miningape 2y ago
      1 & 2: Wikipedia keeps an active list. Currently there are 15 held in Guantanamo bay. Could you provide me with a similar list of prisons + prisoners from China? (no because they intentionally keep it secret). I think the fact that we can name and put pressure on the US about this ~prison~ torture-camp makes enough of the argument for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_detainees_at_G... 3. Yeah it's sad. You can find a list of police files which have been confirmed by 3rd parties. Based on 2018 data we have >5,000 in detention currently. https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/xinjiang-police-files-uyghur-mugshots-detention/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/xinjiang-po... 4. No, and trying to use official sources unfortunately gives you an overly positive impression on China. This is one of the reasons it's so dangerous for an average citizen to live under a system which hides information - you are left without knowledge of how much danger you're in. If you think you're safe you're more likely to be taken advantage of. There was an interesting case recently where CCP propaganda showed that other countries feared the Chinese passport (trying to boost nationalism and pride in China). This has led to several Chinese citizens getting robbed abroad, they then hold their passport in the attackers face thinking it will scare them off. Only for the passport to also get stolen. 6. Absolutely, the direct danger from the US isn't from the US itself but the governments it backs up (indirect danger?). Whether it's because the government is incompetent or evil, history shows that whatever the US props up is likely to collapse as soon as they leave but the country is in a much worse position than if the US never involved itself.
- redcobra762 2y ago
  The US is largely talk, vs. the substantial action China takes and has taken against territories it considers its own. The US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in China. Even for foreigners, the US legal system is accessible, understandable, and weildable for protection. It’s far from perfect, but 100x what you’d get in China.
  - guappa 2y ago
    > US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in China Except if you have an abortion. Then laws don't matter.
    - redcobra762 2y ago
      ...this makes zero sense.
    - descendant 2y ago
      I would like to highlight the small bit of positive in the American system. I don't support the removal of abortion law, nor do I like mixing religion with politics. But, due to the system that exists in the USA, even though the government removed the right to abortion, the individual states can still support it and form their own laws around it. However, a similar situation in other countries would result in complete removal without any option.
      - spencerflem 2y ago
        Give it like a year, I promise you it will be banned federally
        redcobra762 2y ago
        A bill banning abortion nationally would need 60 votes in the Senate, which it will not get. They already started this work yesterday: https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2025/01/22/congress/senate-dems-block-abortion-bill-00200003 https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2025/01/22/congress/se...
guappa 2y ago
Can you compare the military spending of one vs the other and report back please? I never said china has never done anything bad. There is no such country on the planet. China doing bad stuff doesn't make the bad stuff the other countries do disappear, and my point remains valid on which one is more of a threat to nationals of other countries.
- miningape 2y ago
  I'm not making the claim that the US is innocent because China did all this stuff. I'm making the claim that I would feel much safer living on the Mexican-American, Canadian-American border or even in Panama, than I would near any of China's current conflicts. And that China is just as aggressive (if not more so) with their neighbours. At least if the Americans win I don't have to be worried about becoming a political prisoner, forced into re-education camps, or having my organs harvested. Also there are many more conflicts currently where China is involved than the US.
  - guappa 2y ago
    I'm sure Canadians are feeling real safe with the threats of imminent invasion. I live in scandinavia and I can tell you people aren't feeling particularly safe about USA not going to invade. (I don't think they'll do it for real… but then again I also didn't think Putin would go into Ukraine for real so, don't take my work as gospel)
animuchan 2y ago
Taliban is a terrorist group, painting them in a bad light is factual. Nazis, also factual. So I don't think I fully understand the last sentence. Do you mean it's not appropriate for specifically _minors_ to have a theme park about how Nazis are bad guys? Because there's a lot of western content to this effect, including movies and video games, which are also accessible to children. If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park.
- miningape 2y ago
  This is fair and I think reflects my personal opinions on keeping children out of politics. My point is more to do with seeing little kids being dressed up in CCP uniforms, handed a bayonette, and told to charge at the Japanese. I also agree we see this around the world "including movies and video games, which are also accessible to children" but I draw the line where it's being encouraged by the government to do these actions in person. Combine this with the anti-japanese rhetoric taught in primary education and it's a nasty combination*. [1] Another thing to consider is that children are generally not given access to games/movies/whatever that have such mature themes by their parents. I'd make this same argument if I saw US children being dressed up as US soldiers and asked to charge at Nazi "soldiers". Even though we can both (hopefully) agree that Nazi ideologies are/were disgusting and deserve to be bayonetted. > If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park. Not when the Japanese or another of China's enemies are involved. Then it's gloves off. * Also I do want to give some slack here too, the Japanese have never acknowledged or apologised for their attrocities in WW2. [1] https://asiatimes.com/2024/07/china-scrambling-to-unplug-anti-japan-hate-speech/ https://asiatimes.com/2024/07/china-scrambling-to-unplug-ant...
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    The house overwhelmingly passed https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr5349/BILLS-118hr5349rfs.xml https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr5349/BILLS-118hr5349rfs... , requiring all high schoolers "(A) learn that communism has led to the deaths of over 100,000,000 victims worldwide; (B) understand the dangers of communism and similar political ideologies; and (C) understand that 1,500,000,000 people still suffer under communism." Including an oral history "Portraits in Patriotism" If this isn't propaganda against the CCP I don't know what is. Call it truthful or not, kids are being told China is The Enemy. They're dressed up in military uniforms as early as middle school if you're in JROTC. And funny you bring up them suppressing hate speech when here in America we've recently decided to do the opposite with X and Facebook.
yard2010 2y ago
Why don't you ask the kids at Tiananmen Square? / Was fashion the reason why they were there?
- guappa 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - kstrauser 2y ago
    How many social credits are you getting for these posts? You went from “eh, China isn’t so bad” to “Tiananmen Square protestors had it coming” within one thread.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      Yeah , that's wild. The proper move would be to show the very similar US response to Students Protests - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings They sent in the goons to beat up and arrest students protesting genocide or climate change too. Hasn't gotten to tanks yet but truthfully it doesn't need to because we both know those protests aren't doing anything. If there was a credible student uprising it would happen here.
      - guappa 2y ago
        Thanks, I only knew about the USA bombing workers on strike.
    - guappa 2y ago
      I could ask you how much you get paid to write comments supporting the genocide of palestinians… You people with no morals try really really hard to twist words uh? But at the end of the day you're just a sad racist.
      - kstrauser 2y ago
        Link or didn’t happen, comrade. I’ll save you time: you won’t find one.
Iny0ka 2y ago
Fact check: China has strong ties with Central Asian states, Russia, NK, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Pakistan. Regional tensions mainly involve US-allied nations.
lbrito 2y ago
The cognitive dissonance here is beyond words.

spencerflem 2y ago

You could say all of that about the American empire. We renamed it to the Gulf of America, talk about annexing Canada, own Hawaii, fund the colony of Israel, invented Manifest Destony, destabilize democracy via the CIA, firebombed Vietnam, etc etc etc And don't talk to me abt Chinese spying when the NSA and Five Eyes hoovers up and processes the entire internet. Re: propaganda, read your own comment. The American propaganda machine got you to demonize China pretty well And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its insane!

miningape 2y ago
In general I do agree (except for the recent Canada stuff - I believe it's more of a bluff than anything else) But I want to respond to this: > And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its insane 1. The US publically acknowledges who is in prison, China doesn't. You can be disappeared in China without anyone knowing. 2. The Chinese operate several Black prisons both within and without their borders. These are Prisons without actual sentences, laws or rights. The public doesn't even know of their existence. This is where you land up as a political prisoner in China. 3. The Chinese have placed thousands of Uigur muslims in "re-education camps" (not prisons) - many of whom are only guilty by association (i.e. there's no direct crime the CCP arrested them for, other than being a blood relative of someone who did commit one of these "crimes") 4. Chinese police are already spread thin enough dealing with all the political prisoners meaning there are many dangerous criminals who are freely committing crimes in China. The CCP keeps this information under tight wraps so as not to cause a panic. As a result the Chinese are a lot less cautious than they should be so (unofficial) crime levels are much higher than they should be. It's not uncommon to hear of (or see) Children who were kidnapped and had their limbs chopped off so they could beg more effectively - there has never been a widespread crackdown on this behaviour and many perpetrators are still walking the streets forcing children to beg for them. 5. Not to even talk about the prison organ harvesting claims made by several groups who have been persecuted by the CCP. From Falun Gong practitioners to Uigur muslims. Also don't be lazy and just call this propaganda - I could easily do the same with other messages in this thread ("CCP propaganda") meaning it's not a strong argument to anyone on the fence / on the other side. Yes, it is very anti-China, but that's because I'm trying to bring it in contrast to the very anti-US message. I don't think either country is perfect and in fact I prefer to not live in (or near) either.
- guappa 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - miningape 2y ago
    1 & 2: Wikipedia keeps an active list. Currently there are 15 held in Guantanamo bay. Could you provide me with a similar list of prisons + prisoners from China? (no because they intentionally keep it secret). I think the fact that we can name and put pressure on the US about this ~prison~ torture-camp makes enough of the argument for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_detainees_at_G... 3. Yeah it's sad. You can find a list of police files which have been confirmed by 3rd parties. Based on 2018 data we have >5,000 in detention currently. https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/xinjiang-police-files-uyghur-mugshots-detention/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/china-cables/xinjiang-po... 4. No, and trying to use official sources unfortunately gives you an overly positive impression on China. This is one of the reasons it's so dangerous for an average citizen to live under a system which hides information - you are left without knowledge of how much danger you're in. If you think you're safe you're more likely to be taken advantage of. There was an interesting case recently where CCP propaganda showed that other countries feared the Chinese passport (trying to boost nationalism and pride in China). This has led to several Chinese citizens getting robbed abroad, they then hold their passport in the attackers face thinking it will scare them off. Only for the passport to also get stolen. 6. Absolutely, the direct danger from the US isn't from the US itself but the governments it backs up (indirect danger?). Whether it's because the government is incompetent or evil, history shows that whatever the US props up is likely to collapse as soon as they leave but the country is in a much worse position than if the US never involved itself.
redcobra762 2y ago
The US is largely talk, vs. the substantial action China takes and has taken against territories it considers its own. The US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in China. Even for foreigners, the US legal system is accessible, understandable, and weildable for protection. It’s far from perfect, but 100x what you’d get in China.
- guappa 2y ago
  > US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in China Except if you have an abortion. Then laws don't matter.
  - redcobra762 2y ago
    ...this makes zero sense.
  - descendant 2y ago
    I would like to highlight the small bit of positive in the American system. I don't support the removal of abortion law, nor do I like mixing religion with politics. But, due to the system that exists in the USA, even though the government removed the right to abortion, the individual states can still support it and form their own laws around it. However, a similar situation in other countries would result in complete removal without any option.
    - spencerflem 2y ago
      Give it like a year, I promise you it will be banned federally
      - redcobra762 2y ago
        A bill banning abortion nationally would need 60 votes in the Senate, which it will not get. They already started this work yesterday: https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2025/01/22/congress/senate-dems-block-abortion-bill-00200003 https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2025/01/22/congress/se...

guappa 2y ago

Can you compare the military spending of one vs the other and report back please? I never said china has never done anything bad. There is no such country on the planet. China doing bad stuff doesn't make the bad stuff the other countries do disappear, and my point remains valid on which one is more of a threat to nationals of other countries.

miningape 2y ago
I'm not making the claim that the US is innocent because China did all this stuff. I'm making the claim that I would feel much safer living on the Mexican-American, Canadian-American border or even in Panama, than I would near any of China's current conflicts. And that China is just as aggressive (if not more so) with their neighbours. At least if the Americans win I don't have to be worried about becoming a political prisoner, forced into re-education camps, or having my organs harvested. Also there are many more conflicts currently where China is involved than the US.
- guappa 2y ago
  I'm sure Canadians are feeling real safe with the threats of imminent invasion. I live in scandinavia and I can tell you people aren't feeling particularly safe about USA not going to invade. (I don't think they'll do it for real… but then again I also didn't think Putin would go into Ukraine for real so, don't take my work as gospel)

animuchan 2y ago

Taliban is a terrorist group, painting them in a bad light is factual. Nazis, also factual. So I don't think I fully understand the last sentence. Do you mean it's not appropriate for specifically _minors_ to have a theme park about how Nazis are bad guys? Because there's a lot of western content to this effect, including movies and video games, which are also accessible to children. If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park.

miningape 2y ago
This is fair and I think reflects my personal opinions on keeping children out of politics. My point is more to do with seeing little kids being dressed up in CCP uniforms, handed a bayonette, and told to charge at the Japanese. I also agree we see this around the world "including movies and video games, which are also accessible to children" but I draw the line where it's being encouraged by the government to do these actions in person. Combine this with the anti-japanese rhetoric taught in primary education and it's a nasty combination*. [1] Another thing to consider is that children are generally not given access to games/movies/whatever that have such mature themes by their parents. I'd make this same argument if I saw US children being dressed up as US soldiers and asked to charge at Nazi "soldiers". Even though we can both (hopefully) agree that Nazi ideologies are/were disgusting and deserve to be bayonetted. > If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park. Not when the Japanese or another of China's enemies are involved. Then it's gloves off. * Also I do want to give some slack here too, the Japanese have never acknowledged or apologised for their attrocities in WW2. [1] https://asiatimes.com/2024/07/china-scrambling-to-unplug-anti-japan-hate-speech/ https://asiatimes.com/2024/07/china-scrambling-to-unplug-ant...
- spencerflem 2y ago
  The house overwhelmingly passed https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr5349/BILLS-118hr5349rfs.xml https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hr5349/BILLS-118hr5349rfs... , requiring all high schoolers "(A) learn that communism has led to the deaths of over 100,000,000 victims worldwide; (B) understand the dangers of communism and similar political ideologies; and (C) understand that 1,500,000,000 people still suffer under communism." Including an oral history "Portraits in Patriotism" If this isn't propaganda against the CCP I don't know what is. Call it truthful or not, kids are being told China is The Enemy. They're dressed up in military uniforms as early as middle school if you're in JROTC. And funny you bring up them suppressing hate speech when here in America we've recently decided to do the opposite with X and Facebook.

yard2010 2y ago

Why don't you ask the kids at Tiananmen Square? / Was fashion the reason why they were there?

guappa 2y ago
[flagged]
- kstrauser 2y ago
  How many social credits are you getting for these posts? You went from “eh, China isn’t so bad” to “Tiananmen Square protestors had it coming” within one thread.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    Yeah , that's wild. The proper move would be to show the very similar US response to Students Protests - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings They sent in the goons to beat up and arrest students protesting genocide or climate change too. Hasn't gotten to tanks yet but truthfully it doesn't need to because we both know those protests aren't doing anything. If there was a credible student uprising it would happen here.
    - guappa 2y ago
      Thanks, I only knew about the USA bombing workers on strike.
  - guappa 2y ago
    I could ask you how much you get paid to write comments supporting the genocide of palestinians… You people with no morals try really really hard to twist words uh? But at the end of the day you're just a sad racist.
    - kstrauser 2y ago
      Link or didn’t happen, comrade. I’ll save you time: you won’t find one.

Iny0ka 2y ago

Fact check: China has strong ties with Central Asian states, Russia, NK, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Pakistan. Regional tensions mainly involve US-allied nations.

lbrito 2y ago

The cognitive dissonance here is beyond words.