7 ms·

Everything Jason says and then some. (Well, OK, I'd quibble about luck having anything to do with it. Nobody lucks their way into being a doctor - they correc

by patio11 14y ago

Everything Jason says and then some. (Well, OK, I'd quibble about luck having anything to do with it. Nobody lucks their way into being a doctor - they correctly identify it is a good idea based on the scads of available evidence and then work hard on the obvious pathway to becoming one - and we should similarly avoid trivializing ourselves.) I have a folder in Gmail of comments thanking me for my negotiating advice articles. My running tally is folks are $214k a year wealthier literally just by asking for it.

winter_blue 14y ago
> folks are $214k a year wealthier literally just by asking for it. How do you ask for it? (or how do you get there?)
- jasonkester 14y ago
  With your words. More specifically, when they make you an offer for $x/year, you say "how about $(x + 15)" instead of "holy crap yes yes yes!" You can also try it at your current job if you've been there a while and haven't seen more than "cost of living" adjustments in your salary for a while. Though the sad reality is that it's usually a lot easier to ask another company instead and get your raises by switching jobs.
- patio11 14y ago
  I've written on this subject extensively. Most in-depth here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ and here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro... You can also HNSearch.com for my comments about it on HN. (I also recommend looking for tptacek's comments on negotiation/rates.)
  - tocomment 14y ago
    Is the site down?
    - patio11 14y ago
      It seems my hosting provider's DNS company is under DDOS. Wait a while, it should let up. Alternatively, hitting reload a few time seems to work for me.
- chrisbennet 14y ago
  Years ago an interviewer asked me "Bob wanted me to ask you if $X was the number, would you be happy?" I told him yes, I'd be happy with $X, but I'd be really happy with $(X + 3000). I got ($X + 3000).
- artmageddon 14y ago
  Personal anecdote: I literally just asked while on the phone with the recruiter for negotiating for a six-month contract last year in NYC. At the time, I was getting about $67K. Recruiter: "Our client is offering $45/hr for the position, what do you think of the offer?" Myself: "How close to $50/hr can we get?" Recruiter: "He can do $50/hr." That was all it took, and that was the discussion about it verbatim. It's hard when you're already in the position and you have to negotiate a higher raise with your boss because you need to prove you're worth it by performance(and whether or not you meet their metrics, etc etc), but in the interview process, that's how it went for me.
  - vidarh 14y ago
    Can't stress enough that you should ask. As someone who's been on the hiring side most of my career: I've never given my "best and final offer" to a potential hire right away. Doing so is leaving money on the table, as most hires accept the first offer made to them unless it's totally out of the ballpark. But that also conversely means that not asking for more than you get offered is leaving money on the table. If they clamor to accept right way, I'm left wondering if I offered too much. I've also never terminated discussions with someone, or known about situations where that happened, without providing at least one counter offer. I'm sure it could happen, but as long as you're not being an ass about the way you're doing it, few people will turn around and decide not to hire you just because you try to get more money. If anything I want the people who have the confidence to ask, rather than the one that just quietly accept what's offered.
    - artmageddon 14y ago
      > If they clamor to accept right way, I'm left wondering if I offered too much. I doubt that it's ever "too much", but sometimes it can just be a matter of appeasement or desperation. I told the same story above to a friend of mine who had been out of work for at least one or perhaps two years after finishing a degree from a video-game school as he was being offered a position as a web developer. I encouraged him to ask for just a little more than what he had offered, but he sent back an acceptance of the original offer from the employer as he was afraid of rocking the boat, and simply just wanted to get paid as bills began to mount up. The original offer was for a $50K salary, which isn't terrible for starting out of school. In my eyes, I was slightly disappointed that he didn't even really try to get another $2000 or $3000, but in his position, he didn't want to risk losing the original $50K just for a little more.
jeffool 14y ago
I don't think Jason was saying luck had anything to do with it, just that developers (or even employees in general) get the life ground out of them, are cast aside, and then FEEL like they've hit the lottery when they get another job. What Jason's talking about is employee victimization. Treating everyone like shit, so that people will think "Oh, I'm lucky to be here!" akin to a beaten spouse. Be that in comparison to the larger job force after bad experiences elsewhere, or bad treatment against your own coworkers. After all, remember what the common person finds revolutionary about tech companies. Not the nice salaries and high employment rates. Food. Laundry services, on premises events. The faintest hint that the company cares about the people, and tries to treat them well. That's a foreign concept to most. Mostly employees get "you're lucky to even have a job" shoveled down our throats. (And that could in reality be the situation at those larger tech jobs I've loosely described, but the point is, things like that? Good PR against it.)
- eli_gottlieb 14y ago
  After all, remember what the common person finds revolutionary about tech companies. Not the nice salaries and high employment rates. Food. Laundry services, on premises events. The faintest hint that the company cares about the people, and tries to treat them well. That's a foreign concept to most. A fair portion of tech companies don't even do this stuff. My first corporate job had Peapod snacks from Stop & Shop, but didn't have so much as an actual lunch hour. We were often told we'd get a tech seminar or go out to one at a local university, and somehow we never did. It wasn't that any particular boss withheld perks they had promised. There was just an overall culture of "keep your head down, don't act like a geek, and work all the hours God sent to earn your salary", which was a very strange thing to encounter in the tech sector and a downright disturbing thing to see happening without enforcement by a cruel authority figure. It's weird when people oppress themselves.
vacri 14y ago
It's not all harmless roses. I lost my job two months ago because I asked in the performance review to be able to do the job that I signed up to do, and that we agreed on the position description terms in an update six months previously. With no functional receptionist (we kinda had one, but she was always offsite or legitimately busy elsewhere), my day was interrupted more and more and I couldn't focus on my actual role. I was told that my role now includes general reception, and I refused to take this unilateral change. This was an issue that I was always careful to diplomatically make them aware of prviously, so it's not like they were blindsided. That was the end of my employment there. My circumstance was a little unusual, but seriously, it's not as feelgood or harmless as it sounds to 'just ask for it'. I wasn't even asking for more money. I was asking to do my job as agreed upon in the countersigned job description. And this was at a generally ethical workplace that just had a cashflow and hence staffing numbers problem.
- patio11 14y ago
  You're better off, because there are many jobs available to you where a) you won't be asked to play receptionist and b) you can get a nice raise out of the deal. (I'm operating on the assumption that any place which couldn't find a second receptionist with the change they pulled out of the sofa isn't compensating engineers at anything near market.)
- unreal37 14y ago
  Sounds like you're better off elsewhere. Although strangely, you use words like "countersigned job description" as if a job description is a legally binding contract. I think that it's reasonable and expected that the job you do does not always match word-for-word with the job description you had when were hired. Things change, and it's good to be flexible. You might have to learn a new programming language on the job, install some software, design some icons, and other programming-related tasks that were not technically in your job description. But that doesn't extend to answering the main switchboard, getting the front door for people, and cleaning up coffee cups after a meeting. You're right to say, "I'm a programmer not a receptionist". Good for you. But I would be less supportive if you said, "I am a programmer not a DBA" when asked to create a new index. Good luck to you.
jbooth 14y ago
As far as luck goes, I do consider myself lucky that something I enjoy and have passion for happens to be in demand and lucrative. If programming wasn't worth the money it is, I'd either be making less money or doing something else that I maybe don't have the same aptitude for. So to that extent, lucky that the market values us so much for something many of us were innately drawn to anyways.

by patio11 14y ago

winter_blue 14y ago

> folks are $214k a year wealthier literally just by asking for it. How do you ask for it? (or how do you get there?)

jasonkester 14y ago
With your words. More specifically, when they make you an offer for $x/year, you say "how about $(x + 15)" instead of "holy crap yes yes yes!" You can also try it at your current job if you've been there a while and haven't seen more than "cost of living" adjustments in your salary for a while. Though the sad reality is that it's usually a lot easier to ask another company instead and get your raises by switching jobs.
patio11 14y ago
I've written on this subject extensively. Most in-depth here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ and here: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-pro... You can also HNSearch.com for my comments about it on HN. (I also recommend looking for tptacek's comments on negotiation/rates.)
- tocomment 14y ago
  Is the site down?
  - patio11 14y ago
    It seems my hosting provider's DNS company is under DDOS. Wait a while, it should let up. Alternatively, hitting reload a few time seems to work for me.
chrisbennet 14y ago
Years ago an interviewer asked me "Bob wanted me to ask you if $X was the number, would you be happy?" I told him yes, I'd be happy with $X, but I'd be really happy with $(X + 3000). I got ($X + 3000).
artmageddon 14y ago
Personal anecdote: I literally just asked while on the phone with the recruiter for negotiating for a six-month contract last year in NYC. At the time, I was getting about $67K. Recruiter: "Our client is offering $45/hr for the position, what do you think of the offer?" Myself: "How close to $50/hr can we get?" Recruiter: "He can do $50/hr." That was all it took, and that was the discussion about it verbatim. It's hard when you're already in the position and you have to negotiate a higher raise with your boss because you need to prove you're worth it by performance(and whether or not you meet their metrics, etc etc), but in the interview process, that's how it went for me.
- vidarh 14y ago
  Can't stress enough that you should ask. As someone who's been on the hiring side most of my career: I've never given my "best and final offer" to a potential hire right away. Doing so is leaving money on the table, as most hires accept the first offer made to them unless it's totally out of the ballpark. But that also conversely means that not asking for more than you get offered is leaving money on the table. If they clamor to accept right way, I'm left wondering if I offered too much. I've also never terminated discussions with someone, or known about situations where that happened, without providing at least one counter offer. I'm sure it could happen, but as long as you're not being an ass about the way you're doing it, few people will turn around and decide not to hire you just because you try to get more money. If anything I want the people who have the confidence to ask, rather than the one that just quietly accept what's offered.
  - artmageddon 14y ago
    > If they clamor to accept right way, I'm left wondering if I offered too much. I doubt that it's ever "too much", but sometimes it can just be a matter of appeasement or desperation. I told the same story above to a friend of mine who had been out of work for at least one or perhaps two years after finishing a degree from a video-game school as he was being offered a position as a web developer. I encouraged him to ask for just a little more than what he had offered, but he sent back an acceptance of the original offer from the employer as he was afraid of rocking the boat, and simply just wanted to get paid as bills began to mount up. The original offer was for a $50K salary, which isn't terrible for starting out of school. In my eyes, I was slightly disappointed that he didn't even really try to get another $2000 or $3000, but in his position, he didn't want to risk losing the original $50K just for a little more.

jeffool 14y ago

I don't think Jason was saying luck had anything to do with it, just that developers (or even employees in general) get the life ground out of them, are cast aside, and then FEEL like they've hit the lottery when they get another job. What Jason's talking about is employee victimization. Treating everyone like shit, so that people will think "Oh, I'm lucky to be here!" akin to a beaten spouse. Be that in comparison to the larger job force after bad experiences elsewhere, or bad treatment against your own coworkers. After all, remember what the common person finds revolutionary about tech companies. Not the nice salaries and high employment rates. Food. Laundry services, on premises events. The faintest hint that the company cares about the people, and tries to treat them well. That's a foreign concept to most. Mostly employees get "you're lucky to even have a job" shoveled down our throats. (And that could in reality be the situation at those larger tech jobs I've loosely described, but the point is, things like that? Good PR against it.)

eli_gottlieb 14y ago
After all, remember what the common person finds revolutionary about tech companies. Not the nice salaries and high employment rates. Food. Laundry services, on premises events. The faintest hint that the company cares about the people, and tries to treat them well. That's a foreign concept to most. A fair portion of tech companies don't even do this stuff. My first corporate job had Peapod snacks from Stop & Shop, but didn't have so much as an actual lunch hour. We were often told we'd get a tech seminar or go out to one at a local university, and somehow we never did. It wasn't that any particular boss withheld perks they had promised. There was just an overall culture of "keep your head down, don't act like a geek, and work all the hours God sent to earn your salary", which was a very strange thing to encounter in the tech sector and a downright disturbing thing to see happening without enforcement by a cruel authority figure. It's weird when people oppress themselves.

vacri 14y ago

It's not all harmless roses. I lost my job two months ago because I asked in the performance review to be able to do the job that I signed up to do, and that we agreed on the position description terms in an update six months previously. With no functional receptionist (we kinda had one, but she was always offsite or legitimately busy elsewhere), my day was interrupted more and more and I couldn't focus on my actual role. I was told that my role now includes general reception, and I refused to take this unilateral change. This was an issue that I was always careful to diplomatically make them aware of prviously, so it's not like they were blindsided. That was the end of my employment there. My circumstance was a little unusual, but seriously, it's not as feelgood or harmless as it sounds to 'just ask for it'. I wasn't even asking for more money. I was asking to do my job as agreed upon in the countersigned job description. And this was at a generally ethical workplace that just had a cashflow and hence staffing numbers problem.

patio11 14y ago
You're better off, because there are many jobs available to you where a) you won't be asked to play receptionist and b) you can get a nice raise out of the deal. (I'm operating on the assumption that any place which couldn't find a second receptionist with the change they pulled out of the sofa isn't compensating engineers at anything near market.)
unreal37 14y ago
Sounds like you're better off elsewhere. Although strangely, you use words like "countersigned job description" as if a job description is a legally binding contract. I think that it's reasonable and expected that the job you do does not always match word-for-word with the job description you had when were hired. Things change, and it's good to be flexible. You might have to learn a new programming language on the job, install some software, design some icons, and other programming-related tasks that were not technically in your job description. But that doesn't extend to answering the main switchboard, getting the front door for people, and cleaning up coffee cups after a meeting. You're right to say, "I'm a programmer not a receptionist". Good for you. But I would be less supportive if you said, "I am a programmer not a DBA" when asked to create a new index. Good luck to you.

jbooth 14y ago

As far as luck goes, I do consider myself lucky that something I enjoy and have passion for happens to be in demand and lucrative. If programming wasn't worth the money it is, I'd either be making less money or doing something else that I maybe don't have the same aptitude for. So to that extent, lucky that the market values us so much for something many of us were innately drawn to anyways.