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I am affected by this and I didn't vote for this. It's easy to say that "the American People" voted for this, but it's not correct to say that I am personally

I am affected by this and I didn't vote for this. It's easy to say that "the American People" voted for this, but it's not correct to say that I am personally being affected by my bad choices. I think the elections were "fair", for what its worth- I just don't agree that "fairness" makes me blame-worthy when I face the consequences of other folks actions.

sour-taste 2y ago
I 100% agree with what you said, but no one looks back and remembers the people who voted against Hitler, or says 'there were some good people in Nazi Germany'.
- aaomidi 2y ago
  What is possible though is a form of actual resistance. There is nothing forcing us to just share a union so to speak.
  - generalizations 2y ago
    States rights has been too closely associated in the popular mind with slavery and racism (via arguments over what the civil war was really about). It'll be tough to disassociate those enough to make a persuasive argument for secession.
    - XorNot 2y ago
      At the point you actually want a secession movement people aren't worried about the optics of it. It's not happening because the actual cost of secession, civil war and everything else is staggering. These are one way, permanent changes where a large number of the agitators will not live to see the better world. It's compromise, carnage and collateral damage. Doing anything else is a better option 100% of the time. Nobody's going to hear "we're seceding because we're sick of dying from lack of healthcare" and think "ooh, I wonder if it's secretly about slavery?"
      - generalizations 2y ago
        No, but the folks talking about it will be given labels like 'racist'...and that makes it a lot harder for them to gain traction.
freedomben 2y ago
I agree with you completely, but this gets at a debate that's been going on since the ancient days about whether democracy is actually good or not. Whether a tyrant is elected by a fair majority or inherits the throne at best (or Divine Right of Kings, whatever) makes little difference IMHO. That said, while I have criticisms for democracy and do enjoy pointing out it's imperfections when people talk about democracy as some self-evident ideal, I do think it's probably the best system of government in a sea of less than ideal choices.
- peterashford 2y ago
  I'd argue the problem lies less with democracy, more with the media. Democracy requires an informed populace. The success of populist politicians shows you don't have that
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
    I'd the cause is advertising-based business model of the media industry, then. Too few people pay for news these days. So the news aren't the product and we ended mis- and ill-informed.
  - from-nibly 2y ago
    If it worked it would work. If having an informed populace is required for democracy to work then it doesn't work. Especially when you ask the question, "informed about what"?
  - light_hue_1 2y ago
    I'm tired of hearing that people aren't informed. They were informed. Trump told them that science is crap, that tariffs are good, that we should punish immigrants, that he would pardon the jan 6th people, etc. This is what people voted for and what they wanted. Hate and retribution. When Democrats finally stop with this false narrative that if only people knew better, they'd vote for Democrats, maybe we'll start actually winning again.
    - 2y ago
grahamj 2y ago
All eligible voters are collectively responsible for the outcome of the election. You can't be proud of democracy if you won't shoulder the blame when it renders poor outcomes.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  There's a difference between shouldering the burden of the outcome and the outcome indicating that you made bad choices.
  - grahamj 2y ago
    I didn’t say burden and choices, I said blame and responsibility.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Right… in response to someone talking about choices.
klipt 2y ago
Elon Musk found that if you throw billions at getting our low propensity rural voters you can sway the election by enough percents.
- Tostino 2y ago
  That's true, but man am I mad at the Democrats for entirely abandoning that demo for decades before. It lead to this situation.
refurb 2y ago
You’re over complicating things. You are a willing participant in the political system. You agree to live by the results of the election, even if you don’t personally agree with them. You’re not personally responsible for the results, but you are a willing participant in the system that caused them.
- scarecrowbob 2y ago
  "Willing" in what sense? What's my realistic alternative? Lay it on me. I didn't vote, for what it's worth. I don't think it's ethical to participate in that kind of thing. The US is 2 crimes and a real estate scam in a trench coat. When I was younger, I indeed thought that maybe it had some legitimacy, but after having read quite a lot of the history of the millions that the government here has enslaved and murdered I no longer thing it's legitimate. I understand that they have the guns and the power, but realistically I am not a willing participant in this system.
  - refurb 2y ago
    > "Willing" in what sense? What's my realistic alternative? Lay it on me. Leave the country. I did it. > I didn't vote, for what it's worth. I don't think it's ethical to participate in that kind of thing. That's your choice. You have plenty of options. Get involved politically. Organize. Fund raise. Plenty of opportunity to affect the outcome. But you'd rather just complain about it online.
    - scarecrowbob 2y ago
      Yeah, "just colonize somewhere else" is pretty much the response that I expected. I spent last night doing a shift till 4 in the morning at a warming center for folks who don't have houses, and I've spent the last several months working on taking an off grid chunk of property to a place where I can host full families of folks to "come and play music". None of that makes the US government one bit more legitimate.
      - 2y ago

sour-taste 2y ago

I 100% agree with what you said, but no one looks back and remembers the people who voted against Hitler, or says 'there were some good people in Nazi Germany'.

aaomidi 2y ago
What is possible though is a form of actual resistance. There is nothing forcing us to just share a union so to speak.
- generalizations 2y ago
  States rights has been too closely associated in the popular mind with slavery and racism (via arguments over what the civil war was really about). It'll be tough to disassociate those enough to make a persuasive argument for secession.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    At the point you actually want a secession movement people aren't worried about the optics of it. It's not happening because the actual cost of secession, civil war and everything else is staggering. These are one way, permanent changes where a large number of the agitators will not live to see the better world. It's compromise, carnage and collateral damage. Doing anything else is a better option 100% of the time. Nobody's going to hear "we're seceding because we're sick of dying from lack of healthcare" and think "ooh, I wonder if it's secretly about slavery?"
    - generalizations 2y ago
      No, but the folks talking about it will be given labels like 'racist'...and that makes it a lot harder for them to gain traction.

freedomben 2y ago

I agree with you completely, but this gets at a debate that's been going on since the ancient days about whether democracy is actually good or not. Whether a tyrant is elected by a fair majority or inherits the throne at best (or Divine Right of Kings, whatever) makes little difference IMHO. That said, while I have criticisms for democracy and do enjoy pointing out it's imperfections when people talk about democracy as some self-evident ideal, I do think it's probably the best system of government in a sea of less than ideal choices.

peterashford 2y ago
I'd argue the problem lies less with democracy, more with the media. Democracy requires an informed populace. The success of populist politicians shows you don't have that
- rcMgD2BwE72F 2y ago
  I'd the cause is advertising-based business model of the media industry, then. Too few people pay for news these days. So the news aren't the product and we ended mis- and ill-informed.
- from-nibly 2y ago
  If it worked it would work. If having an informed populace is required for democracy to work then it doesn't work. Especially when you ask the question, "informed about what"?
- light_hue_1 2y ago
  I'm tired of hearing that people aren't informed. They were informed. Trump told them that science is crap, that tariffs are good, that we should punish immigrants, that he would pardon the jan 6th people, etc. This is what people voted for and what they wanted. Hate and retribution. When Democrats finally stop with this false narrative that if only people knew better, they'd vote for Democrats, maybe we'll start actually winning again.
  - 2y ago

grahamj 2y ago

All eligible voters are collectively responsible for the outcome of the election. You can't be proud of democracy if you won't shoulder the blame when it renders poor outcomes.

llamaimperative 2y ago
There's a difference between shouldering the burden of the outcome and the outcome indicating that you made bad choices.
- grahamj 2y ago
  I didn’t say burden and choices, I said blame and responsibility.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Right… in response to someone talking about choices.

klipt 2y ago

Elon Musk found that if you throw billions at getting our low propensity rural voters you can sway the election by enough percents.

Tostino 2y ago
That's true, but man am I mad at the Democrats for entirely abandoning that demo for decades before. It lead to this situation.

refurb 2y ago

You’re over complicating things. You are a willing participant in the political system. You agree to live by the results of the election, even if you don’t personally agree with them. You’re not personally responsible for the results, but you are a willing participant in the system that caused them.

scarecrowbob 2y ago
"Willing" in what sense? What's my realistic alternative? Lay it on me. I didn't vote, for what it's worth. I don't think it's ethical to participate in that kind of thing. The US is 2 crimes and a real estate scam in a trench coat. When I was younger, I indeed thought that maybe it had some legitimacy, but after having read quite a lot of the history of the millions that the government here has enslaved and murdered I no longer thing it's legitimate. I understand that they have the guns and the power, but realistically I am not a willing participant in this system.
- refurb 2y ago
  > "Willing" in what sense? What's my realistic alternative? Lay it on me. Leave the country. I did it. > I didn't vote, for what it's worth. I don't think it's ethical to participate in that kind of thing. That's your choice. You have plenty of options. Get involved politically. Organize. Fund raise. Plenty of opportunity to affect the outcome. But you'd rather just complain about it online.
  - scarecrowbob 2y ago
    Yeah, "just colonize somewhere else" is pretty much the response that I expected. I spent last night doing a shift till 4 in the morning at a warming center for folks who don't have houses, and I've spent the last several months working on taking an off grid chunk of property to a place where I can host full families of folks to "come and play music". None of that makes the US government one bit more legitimate.
    - 2y ago