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> I believe XWayland is there to stay for retro compatibility. That seems fine to me, retro-compatibility seems like a good thing. That would not be unlike XQua

> I believe XWayland is there to stay for retro compatibility. That seems fine to me, retro-compatibility seems like a good thing. That would not be unlike XQuartz on Mac, which doesn't make us question Mac's own display server. Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. > But doesn't Wine work well with XWayland? (until they fully move to Wayland, which I think I've read they are in the process of doing). Wine is already a compatibility layer, so adding XWayland on top of it introduces overheads and additional lags and visual artifacts in some games. There is an experimental version of wine 9.22+ that should theoretically run natively on Wayland, but it still crashes 100% of the time for me. Nvidia drivers were also notorious with Wayland, but they are getting better progressively. I think the meme is nearly here: this might be the year of the Linux gaming desktop.

jraph 2y ago
> Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. That just seems wrong. Default terminal apps like gnome-terminal and konsole are probably the first apps that have worked (well) on Wayland (as soon as select paste started working, which it has for years). If you are using a terminal that doesn't support Wayland, that's a choice you are making. Nothing uses XWayland on my setup except IntelliJ (and they are working on a native Wayland support, it might actually be working well right now but I also happen to run it in a local container though ssh and I haven't yet looked into the Wayland alternative of ssh -X). And that was not even a criterion to choose my apps. That's just not 50% for most people I think. And even if it were, running the DE in Wayland and all the apps in XWayland already brings benefits in comparison to running a full X11 session, at least for setups with multi screens with different DPIs. So yes, it would still make sense. > Wine is already a compatibility layer .. That doesn't introduce any lag because it's not an emulator, it's a reimplementation of Windows APIs, with native speeds, so it doesn't matter at all that it's a compatibility layer in this discussion. Okay, there is dxvk, wined3d and things like this, but apparently they can be better than the original under certain conditions [2]. > adding XWayland on top of it introduces overheads It's not supposed to, your game renders directly anyway [1]: > What about the overhead of running X on wayland? > Most modern desktops already use an external compositing manager: when the X server decides it needs to update content, it informs this external process (usually your window manager), and allows it to control the rendering entirely. Using Xwayland is just the same as this, but more efficient because the compositing manager doesn't have to go back through the X server to display the content it rendered. I'm eager to believe that nvidia has bugs with Wayland (they've been given the middle finger for a reason), and that there are Wayland-specific bugs in some apps, especially games. > I think the meme is nearly here: this might be the year of the Linux gaming desktop. Aren't we already there actually? Isn't it like 90%+ of games that just work now? Isn't the Steam Deck a success? I have friends that were stuck on Windows because of games until recently but finally switched to Linux last year or the year before. [1] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/nyuqou/what_makes_dxvk_performs_better_than_directx_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/nyuqou/what_m...
- MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
  > Aren't we already there actually? Isn't it like 90%+ of games that just work now? Isn't the Steam Deck a success? This has been my experience. The only games that give me grief are either just a badly supported on Windows or use some ring0 anticheat bullshit. Thankfully, I don't even like most of the sorts of games that rely on ring0 anticheat, so nothing of value was lost for me. The only remaining games that have papercuts are caused by garden-variety Wine/Proton support that usually get patched in a matter of weeks. I honestly haven't seen a Wayland-caused game issue since the release of KDE 6.0.1, and even the general Nvidia driver issues have mostly evaporated since then.
MegaDeKay 2y ago
> Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. Konsole: 24.12.1 KDE Frameworks: 6.10.0 Qt: Using 6.8.1 and built against 6.8.1 Arch Linux (Wayland) Build ABI: x86_64-little_endian-lp64 Kernel: linux 6.12.10-arch1-1
II2II 2y ago
> Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. For an Arch user, that 50% may be valid since the distribution encourages the use of an eclectic mix of software. On the other hand, most Linux users will be using distributions based upon Gnome or KDE. In those cases The majority of software will run under Wayland. It's also kind of weird to dismiss Xwayland due to it adding overhead. Traditionally, X applications could be displayed upon a completely different machine from what they were running on. This could be a dedicated X terminal, and even a Windows or Macintosh computer. I would suggest the only reason why X is thought of as a native graphics stack is due to the rise of Linux (and, to a lesser degree, BSD) on inexpensive personal computers.

jraph 2y ago

> Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. That just seems wrong. Default terminal apps like gnome-terminal and konsole are probably the first apps that have worked (well) on Wayland (as soon as select paste started working, which it has for years). If you are using a terminal that doesn't support Wayland, that's a choice you are making. Nothing uses XWayland on my setup except IntelliJ (and they are working on a native Wayland support, it might actually be working well right now but I also happen to run it in a local container though ssh and I haven't yet looked into the Wayland alternative of ssh -X). And that was not even a criterion to choose my apps. That's just not 50% for most people I think. And even if it were, running the DE in Wayland and all the apps in XWayland already brings benefits in comparison to running a full X11 session, at least for setups with multi screens with different DPIs. So yes, it would still make sense. > Wine is already a compatibility layer .. That doesn't introduce any lag because it's not an emulator, it's a reimplementation of Windows APIs, with native speeds, so it doesn't matter at all that it's a compatibility layer in this discussion. Okay, there is dxvk, wined3d and things like this, but apparently they can be better than the original under certain conditions [2]. > adding XWayland on top of it introduces overheads It's not supposed to, your game renders directly anyway [1]: > What about the overhead of running X on wayland? > Most modern desktops already use an external compositing manager: when the X server decides it needs to update content, it informs this external process (usually your window manager), and allows it to control the rendering entirely. Using Xwayland is just the same as this, but more efficient because the compositing manager doesn't have to go back through the X server to display the content it rendered. I'm eager to believe that nvidia has bugs with Wayland (they've been given the middle finger for a reason), and that there are Wayland-specific bugs in some apps, especially games. > I think the meme is nearly here: this might be the year of the Linux gaming desktop. Aren't we already there actually? Isn't it like 90%+ of games that just work now? Isn't the Steam Deck a success? I have friends that were stuck on Windows because of games until recently but finally switched to Linux last year or the year before. [1] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html https://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.html [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/nyuqou/what_makes_dxvk_performs_better_than_directx_in/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/nyuqou/what_m...

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
> Aren't we already there actually? Isn't it like 90%+ of games that just work now? Isn't the Steam Deck a success? This has been my experience. The only games that give me grief are either just a badly supported on Windows or use some ring0 anticheat bullshit. Thankfully, I don't even like most of the sorts of games that rely on ring0 anticheat, so nothing of value was lost for me. The only remaining games that have papercuts are caused by garden-variety Wine/Proton support that usually get patched in a matter of weeks. I honestly haven't seen a Wayland-caused game issue since the release of KDE 6.0.1, and even the general Nvidia driver issues have mostly evaporated since then.

MegaDeKay 2y ago

> Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. Konsole: 24.12.1 KDE Frameworks: 6.10.0 Qt: Using 6.8.1 and built against 6.8.1 Arch Linux (Wayland) Build ABI: x86_64-little_endian-lp64 Kernel: linux 6.12.10-arch1-1

II2II 2y ago

> Yes but if more than 50% of the GUI softwares you run fallback to XWayland (including terminals), it makes no sense. For an Arch user, that 50% may be valid since the distribution encourages the use of an eclectic mix of software. On the other hand, most Linux users will be using distributions based upon Gnome or KDE. In those cases The majority of software will run under Wayland. It's also kind of weird to dismiss Xwayland due to it adding overhead. Traditionally, X applications could be displayed upon a completely different machine from what they were running on. This could be a dedicated X terminal, and even a Windows or Macintosh computer. I would suggest the only reason why X is thought of as a native graphics stack is due to the rise of Linux (and, to a lesser degree, BSD) on inexpensive personal computers.