4 ms·

Is that why I, and a lot of other people my age, have a lower standard of living than my parents did at the same point in their lives? The "free movement of ca

Is that why I, and a lot of other people my age, have a lower standard of living than my parents did at the same point in their lives? The "free movement of capital" only ever seems to move the capital one direction: up to the people who needed the labor of others to reach such wealth.

whimsicalism 2y ago
The large majority of people do not have a lower standard of living than their parents at the same age. My dad’s family could not even afford shoes for him and he lived in Europe. I am sorry that you feel you are downwardly mobile, but you should not assume your experience generalizes.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  Mine lived in America. Where the story in the article is taking place. This is, in fact, a generalized experience: [0] [0]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > This is, in fact, a generalized experience Your article is from 2019. We're now "wealthier than previous generations were at [our] age" [1]. [1] https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-finance-real-estate-50742ffe https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-fi...
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      it’s also turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants It's divided by whether you own real estate or equities. Immigrant homeownership is starkly lower than native-born Americans' [1]. We're probably going to see a surge in that disparity, now, given the immigrant workforce that builds and renovates houses is in the process of being gutted. That increases the value of existing stock. [1] https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/files/harvard_jchs_immigrant_homeownership_cornelissen_pack_2023.pdf https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/fi...
        whimsicalism 2y ago
        exactly my point - if you were to subset to people whose parents were native-born US and compare their wealth to that of their parents at same age, it would be absolutely higher. it looks closer than it is because of immigration and we aren’t comparing to the parents in their home country
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What I find interesting is that children in of immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income. That is to say, the have higher economic mobility intergenerational income growth.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income Income, not wealth. Particularly not after inheritances transfer.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        The studies I am familiar with focus on the lowest income quintiles, where inheritance wealth transfer is less of a consideration. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if wealth transfer favored immigrants as well when families are controlled and matched for comparison.
    - lenerdenator 2y ago
      WSJ? Might as well have not included it. It's paywalled. That being said, it seems to reference property owners. Hell, if I'd had the money to buy a house prior to the pandemic, I would have. I didn't because of constant reorgs at my employer at the time, which resulted in hiring freezes and reduced raises. The goal behind these was to make the company attractive to buyers. Eventually, they did find one: Oracle. They've since gutted what was a major employer for my region. Since the pandemic housing has skyrocketed and pay hasn't kept up. It's been stagnant for 40 years while economic output has risen, along with COL [0]. Where'd all of the value go? (that's a rhetorical question) [0]https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/comparing-the-costs-of-generations.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/comparing-the-costs-...
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > it seems to reference property owners. Yes. Millenials own property at the highest rate, age adjusted, in generations. (Anecdote: am Millenial. Own a home. Most of my friends do, too. Yes, it's a bubble, but it's a big one.) > Where'd all of the value go?...(that's a rhetorical question) No, it's not. It went to the people who bought houses. Including between 2019 and 2024. Which generation's mode reached home-buying age in that interval, an interval also generously sprinkled with massive stimulus, a stock-market boom and forced consumption-reduction through stay-at-home orders? (That is a rhetorical question.)
        lenerdenator 2y ago
        "Yes. Millenials own property at the highest rate, age adjusted, in generations." Age-adjusted? So if you take out the fact that it took up more of the one resource that matters more than anything else to become property owners, then, yes, Millennials have more of it. Which is kind of proving my point.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Age-adjusted?...So if you take out the fact that it took up more of the one resource that matters more than anything else to become property owners Ask before assuming. Age adjusted means taking each generation when they were the same age, how wealthy were they? A Boomer today is wealthier than a Millenial because they've had more time to accumulate. But when a Boomer was Millenial-aged, she had on average less wealth than a Millenial today.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      You keep posting articles from WSJ as if we should take Bezo's literal mouthpiece as a reliable source. edit: Bezos doesn't own the WSJ. I'm wrong.
      - magicalist 2y ago
        Rupert Murdoch (Bezos owns the Washington Post)
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    I don’t feel like having the nth argument about whether we are better off today than in 1980. Agree to disagree, i feel that the facts are obvious, especially if you subset to the population whose parents were in the US in 1980. i think if you gave people a legitimate choice to go back to 1980 (and take their friends let’s say), we would see the revealed preference. certainly if you did it for a year and then gave them the option to come back
    - nfw2 2y ago
      case-in-point, my mom was effectively cured of a cancer in 2024 that they wouldn't have even tried to treat in 1980
nfw2 2y ago
The reason young people often have a lower standard of living is because: - there is a shortage of housing - predatory loans for higher education - chronic health crisis due to terrible government health policy and guidelines - globalization has led to an international labor market The last point may be bad for many Americans but an unequivocal good for the world. Global poverty has seen an incredible drop in the past 70 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:World-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:Wo...
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Interesting that you put the chronic health crisis on a failure of government. I would put that more on a failure of culture to value healthy living and activity. I wouldn't call that the responsibility of the government. Perhaps lack of clarity on ownership is related to the crisis itself.
  - nfw2 2y ago
    It's not solely the fault of government, but heavy corn subsidies and the food pyramid travesty didn't help.

whimsicalism 2y ago

The large majority of people do not have a lower standard of living than their parents at the same age. My dad’s family could not even afford shoes for him and he lived in Europe. I am sorry that you feel you are downwardly mobile, but you should not assume your experience generalizes.

lenerdenator 2y ago
Mine lived in America. Where the story in the article is taking place. This is, in fact, a generalized experience: [0] [0]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > This is, in fact, a generalized experience Your article is from 2019. We're now "wealthier than previous generations were at [our] age" [1]. [1] https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-finance-real-estate-50742ffe https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-fi...
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    it’s also turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants It's divided by whether you own real estate or equities. Immigrant homeownership is starkly lower than native-born Americans' [1]. We're probably going to see a surge in that disparity, now, given the immigrant workforce that builds and renovates houses is in the process of being gutted. That increases the value of existing stock. [1] https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/files/harvard_jchs_immigrant_homeownership_cornelissen_pack_2023.pdf https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/fi...
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        exactly my point - if you were to subset to people whose parents were native-born US and compare their wealth to that of their parents at same age, it would be absolutely higher. it looks closer than it is because of immigration and we aren’t comparing to the parents in their home country
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What I find interesting is that children in of immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income. That is to say, the have higher economic mobility intergenerational income growth.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income Income, not wealth. Particularly not after inheritances transfer.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        The studies I am familiar with focus on the lowest income quintiles, where inheritance wealth transfer is less of a consideration. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if wealth transfer favored immigrants as well when families are controlled and matched for comparison.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    WSJ? Might as well have not included it. It's paywalled. That being said, it seems to reference property owners. Hell, if I'd had the money to buy a house prior to the pandemic, I would have. I didn't because of constant reorgs at my employer at the time, which resulted in hiring freezes and reduced raises. The goal behind these was to make the company attractive to buyers. Eventually, they did find one: Oracle. They've since gutted what was a major employer for my region. Since the pandemic housing has skyrocketed and pay hasn't kept up. It's been stagnant for 40 years while economic output has risen, along with COL [0]. Where'd all of the value go? (that's a rhetorical question) [0]https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/comparing-the-costs-of-generations.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/comparing-the-costs-...
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > it seems to reference property owners. Yes. Millenials own property at the highest rate, age adjusted, in generations. (Anecdote: am Millenial. Own a home. Most of my friends do, too. Yes, it's a bubble, but it's a big one.) > Where'd all of the value go?...(that's a rhetorical question) No, it's not. It went to the people who bought houses. Including between 2019 and 2024. Which generation's mode reached home-buying age in that interval, an interval also generously sprinkled with massive stimulus, a stock-market boom and forced consumption-reduction through stay-at-home orders? (That is a rhetorical question.)
      - lenerdenator 2y ago
        "Yes. Millenials own property at the highest rate, age adjusted, in generations." Age-adjusted? So if you take out the fact that it took up more of the one resource that matters more than anything else to become property owners, then, yes, Millennials have more of it. Which is kind of proving my point.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > Age-adjusted?...So if you take out the fact that it took up more of the one resource that matters more than anything else to become property owners Ask before assuming. Age adjusted means taking each generation when they were the same age, how wealthy were they? A Boomer today is wealthier than a Millenial because they've had more time to accumulate. But when a Boomer was Millenial-aged, she had on average less wealth than a Millenial today.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    You keep posting articles from WSJ as if we should take Bezo's literal mouthpiece as a reliable source. edit: Bezos doesn't own the WSJ. I'm wrong.
    - magicalist 2y ago
      Rupert Murdoch (Bezos owns the Washington Post)
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  I don’t feel like having the nth argument about whether we are better off today than in 1980. Agree to disagree, i feel that the facts are obvious, especially if you subset to the population whose parents were in the US in 1980. i think if you gave people a legitimate choice to go back to 1980 (and take their friends let’s say), we would see the revealed preference. certainly if you did it for a year and then gave them the option to come back
  - nfw2 2y ago
    case-in-point, my mom was effectively cured of a cancer in 2024 that they wouldn't have even tried to treat in 1980

nfw2 2y ago

The reason young people often have a lower standard of living is because: - there is a shortage of housing - predatory loans for higher education - chronic health crisis due to terrible government health policy and guidelines - globalization has led to an international labor market The last point may be bad for many Americans but an unequivocal good for the world. Global poverty has seen an incredible drop in the past 70 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:World-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:Wo...

s1artibartfast 2y ago
Interesting that you put the chronic health crisis on a failure of government. I would put that more on a failure of culture to value healthy living and activity. I wouldn't call that the responsibility of the government. Perhaps lack of clarity on ownership is related to the crisis itself.
- nfw2 2y ago
  It's not solely the fault of government, but heavy corn subsidies and the food pyramid travesty didn't help.