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Free movement of capital and the ability to identify promising projects and allocate our resources there are why our society is prosperous and why we are able t

Free movement of capital and the ability to identify promising projects and allocate our resources there are why our society is prosperous and why we are able to devote more resources towards healthcare than any society that has ever come before us. This money is managed by small amounts of people but it is aggregated from millions of investors, most of these are public companies. The US spends over 10x that amount on healthcare each year.

lenerdenator 2y ago
Is that why I, and a lot of other people my age, have a lower standard of living than my parents did at the same point in their lives? The "free movement of capital" only ever seems to move the capital one direction: up to the people who needed the labor of others to reach such wealth.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  The large majority of people do not have a lower standard of living than their parents at the same age. My dad’s family could not even afford shoes for him and he lived in Europe. I am sorry that you feel you are downwardly mobile, but you should not assume your experience generalizes.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    Mine lived in America. Where the story in the article is taking place. This is, in fact, a generalized experience: [0] [0]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > This is, in fact, a generalized experience Your article is from 2019. We're now "wealthier than previous generations were at [our] age" [1]. [1] https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-finance-real-estate-50742ffe https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-fi...
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        it’s also turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants It's divided by whether you own real estate or equities. Immigrant homeownership is starkly lower than native-born Americans' [1]. We're probably going to see a surge in that disparity, now, given the immigrant workforce that builds and renovates houses is in the process of being gutted. That increases the value of existing stock. [1] https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/files/harvard_jchs_immigrant_homeownership_cornelissen_pack_2023.pdf https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/fi...
        whimsicalism 2y ago
        exactly my point - if you were to subset to people whose parents were native-born US and compare their wealth to that of their parents at same age, it would be absolutely higher. it looks closer than it is because of immigration and we aren’t comparing to the parents in their home country
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What I find interesting is that children in of immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income. That is to say, the have higher economic mobility intergenerational income growth.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income Income, not wealth. Particularly not after inheritances transfer.
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      I don’t feel like having the nth argument about whether we are better off today than in 1980. Agree to disagree, i feel that the facts are obvious, especially if you subset to the population whose parents were in the US in 1980. i think if you gave people a legitimate choice to go back to 1980 (and take their friends let’s say), we would see the revealed preference. certainly if you did it for a year and then gave them the option to come back
      - nfw2 2y ago
        case-in-point, my mom was effectively cured of a cancer in 2024 that they wouldn't have even tried to treat in 1980
- nfw2 2y ago
  The reason young people often have a lower standard of living is because: - there is a shortage of housing - predatory loans for higher education - chronic health crisis due to terrible government health policy and guidelines - globalization has led to an international labor market The last point may be bad for many Americans but an unequivocal good for the world. Global poverty has seen an incredible drop in the past 70 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:World-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:Wo...
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Interesting that you put the chronic health crisis on a failure of government. I would put that more on a failure of culture to value healthy living and activity. I wouldn't call that the responsibility of the government. Perhaps lack of clarity on ownership is related to the crisis itself.
    - nfw2 2y ago
      It's not solely the fault of government, but heavy corn subsidies and the food pyramid travesty didn't help.
bbqfog 2y ago
Having to spend thousands for insurance every year (even if you’re totally healthy) and not having it even be remotely effective, is not my definition of “prosperous”.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  Individual insurers pay out tens of billions of dollars in claims every year, frequently have non-profitable years, and are the counterparty on pretty risky contracts. There are lots of problems with our current approach to healthcare, but insurers aren’t charging you way more than the cost to counterparty on that contract should be.
  - bbqfog 2y ago
    None of this suggests a prosperous society. More like a corrupt and bureaucratic society.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    "Frequently have non-profitable years" A graph of the stocks for UnitedHealth, Elevance (formerly Anthem) and Cigna shows that they're all on the growth track for the last five years. If a subscriber pays them what they do, and they don't have money to pay a claim declared medically necessary by a medical doctor, but do have the money to forward to a retirement fund, they are charging too much. Most of the rest of the industrialized world seems to grasp this concept, and their people live longer.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > graph of the stocks for UnitedHealth, Elevance (formerly Anthem) and Cigna shows that they're all on the growth track for the last five years Stock price ! profitability, but you're still correct. UnitedHealth's operations have churned out cash each of the last four years [1], as have Cigna [2] and Elevance [3]. Underwriting gains across the industry have been strong for years [4]. The only story I can think of where American health insurers lost money was Aetna with its underpriced ACA plans [5]. That said, whimsicalism is also partly right in that insurers aren't the cause of the unaffordability of American healthcare. They by and large pay out most of their premiums. (With some variance.) [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UNH/cash-flow/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UNH/cash-flow/ [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CI/cash-flow/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CI/cash-flow/ [3] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ELV/cash-flow/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ELV/cash-flow/ [4] https://content.naic.org/sites/default/files/2021-Annual-Health-Insurance-Industry-Analysis-Report.pdf https://content.naic.org/sites/default/files/2021-Annual-Hea... [5] https://spia.princeton.edu/news/why-private-health-insurers-are-losing-money-affordable-care-act https://spia.princeton.edu/news/why-private-health-insurers-...

lenerdenator 2y ago

Is that why I, and a lot of other people my age, have a lower standard of living than my parents did at the same point in their lives? The "free movement of capital" only ever seems to move the capital one direction: up to the people who needed the labor of others to reach such wealth.

whimsicalism 2y ago
The large majority of people do not have a lower standard of living than their parents at the same age. My dad’s family could not even afford shoes for him and he lived in Europe. I am sorry that you feel you are downwardly mobile, but you should not assume your experience generalizes.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  Mine lived in America. Where the story in the article is taking place. This is, in fact, a generalized experience: [0] [0]https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millennial-life-how-young-adulthood-today-compares-with-prior-generations-2/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/02/14/millenn...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > This is, in fact, a generalized experience Your article is from 2019. We're now "wealthier than previous generations were at [our] age" [1]. [1] https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-finance-real-estate-50742ffe https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/millennials-personal-fi...
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      it’s also turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > turbocharged by the number of people that are descendants of immigrants It's divided by whether you own real estate or equities. Immigrant homeownership is starkly lower than native-born Americans' [1]. We're probably going to see a surge in that disparity, now, given the immigrant workforce that builds and renovates houses is in the process of being gutted. That increases the value of existing stock. [1] https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/files/harvard_jchs_immigrant_homeownership_cornelissen_pack_2023.pdf https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/research/fi...
        whimsicalism 2y ago
        exactly my point - if you were to subset to people whose parents were native-born US and compare their wealth to that of their parents at same age, it would be absolutely higher. it looks closer than it is because of immigration and we aren’t comparing to the parents in their home country
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        What I find interesting is that children in of immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income. That is to say, the have higher economic mobility intergenerational income growth.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > immigrants greatly outperform children of non-immigrants when compared by household income Income, not wealth. Particularly not after inheritances transfer.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    I don’t feel like having the nth argument about whether we are better off today than in 1980. Agree to disagree, i feel that the facts are obvious, especially if you subset to the population whose parents were in the US in 1980. i think if you gave people a legitimate choice to go back to 1980 (and take their friends let’s say), we would see the revealed preference. certainly if you did it for a year and then gave them the option to come back
    - nfw2 2y ago
      case-in-point, my mom was effectively cured of a cancer in 2024 that they wouldn't have even tried to treat in 1980
nfw2 2y ago
The reason young people often have a lower standard of living is because: - there is a shortage of housing - predatory loans for higher education - chronic health crisis due to terrible government health policy and guidelines - globalization has led to an international labor market The last point may be bad for many Americans but an unequivocal good for the world. Global poverty has seen an incredible drop in the past 70 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:World-population-in-extreme-poverty-absolute.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_poverty#/media/File:Wo...
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Interesting that you put the chronic health crisis on a failure of government. I would put that more on a failure of culture to value healthy living and activity. I wouldn't call that the responsibility of the government. Perhaps lack of clarity on ownership is related to the crisis itself.
  - nfw2 2y ago
    It's not solely the fault of government, but heavy corn subsidies and the food pyramid travesty didn't help.

bbqfog 2y ago

Having to spend thousands for insurance every year (even if you’re totally healthy) and not having it even be remotely effective, is not my definition of “prosperous”.

whimsicalism 2y ago
Individual insurers pay out tens of billions of dollars in claims every year, frequently have non-profitable years, and are the counterparty on pretty risky contracts. There are lots of problems with our current approach to healthcare, but insurers aren’t charging you way more than the cost to counterparty on that contract should be.
- bbqfog 2y ago
  None of this suggests a prosperous society. More like a corrupt and bureaucratic society.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  "Frequently have non-profitable years" A graph of the stocks for UnitedHealth, Elevance (formerly Anthem) and Cigna shows that they're all on the growth track for the last five years. If a subscriber pays them what they do, and they don't have money to pay a claim declared medically necessary by a medical doctor, but do have the money to forward to a retirement fund, they are charging too much. Most of the rest of the industrialized world seems to grasp this concept, and their people live longer.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > graph of the stocks for UnitedHealth, Elevance (formerly Anthem) and Cigna shows that they're all on the growth track for the last five years Stock price ! profitability, but you're still correct. UnitedHealth's operations have churned out cash each of the last four years [1], as have Cigna [2] and Elevance [3]. Underwriting gains across the industry have been strong for years [4]. The only story I can think of where American health insurers lost money was Aetna with its underpriced ACA plans [5]. That said, whimsicalism is also partly right in that insurers aren't the cause of the unaffordability of American healthcare. They by and large pay out most of their premiums. (With some variance.) [1] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UNH/cash-flow/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/UNH/cash-flow/ [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CI/cash-flow/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/CI/cash-flow/ [3] https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ELV/cash-flow/ https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/ELV/cash-flow/ [4] https://content.naic.org/sites/default/files/2021-Annual-Health-Insurance-Industry-Analysis-Report.pdf https://content.naic.org/sites/default/files/2021-Annual-Hea... [5] https://spia.princeton.edu/news/why-private-health-insurers-are-losing-money-affordable-care-act https://spia.princeton.edu/news/why-private-health-insurers-...