4 ms·

There are millions of people in the US that are making a lot less than you do who manage to buy houses, go on vacations, save for retirement and put their kids

There are millions of people in the US that are making a lot less than you do who manage to buy houses, go on vacations, save for retirement and put their kids through college. I’m 50 now, we purposefully “de-contented” our lives two years ago after our youngest graduated in 2020 and after Covid so we wouldn’t have to be in the rat race. I never made a lot as your standard enterprise dev and didn’t hit $200K+ until I was 46 and started working at BigTech remotely and we used the three years I was there to pay off debt, put some money in savings, etc. I’ve turned down opportunities that would pay me close to $100k more in cash because I didn’t want the headache and definitely wasn’t going to ever be in an office. If you need me to be physically somewhere for a week, put me on a plane. Even in 2020, I said no to interviewing as an SDE at Amazon because I didn’t want to relocate to Seattle after Covid lifted and I was only making $150K then. The remote position at AWS ProServe was then suggested. We had the big house in the burbs of Atlanta in the “good school system” in 2016 built when I was only making $140K. True, when we sold it last year it was double the price. But we would have had to move further out if we were buying house in 2023. It would have been doable Either way, we moved to a condo in Florida that is state tax free, we downsized to one car and now if I had to, I could pay all of our bills including our spending money with just my income and all I would need to make is $140K. Making around $200k, I max out my retirement + catch up contributions + HSA and we have been on a plane to do something (mostly vacations, occasionally visiting friends) over a dozen times a year since mid 2022 and that trend is continuing for the foreseeable future For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college and should be making way more than me in three years. I’m not bragging. I have no other income besides my job. I have no worries about “AI”, I moved into consulting working full time for consulting companies in 2020 (well then the consulting department at AWS). I just have to be able to sell and/or guide implementations of whatever the shovel du jour is. Right now I’m leading a Kubernetes + AI implementation.

ebiester 2y ago
Yes, but how is that 15 year old going to do the same? What about the ones who don't end up winning the career lottery? We need this to be possible for two people making 40k a year, not 140.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  A new college grad across all fields has a median earning of $65K - $75K (https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-college-graduate-salary/#inequalities https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-college...). No you can’t buy a house straight out of school. But you move up in your career just like everyone else does. From that same citation, look at the median starting salary in engineering disciplines - over $100K. The median household income of homebuyers is around $110K. (https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/nar-finds-typical-home-buyers-annual-household-income-climbed-to-record-high-of-107000 https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/nar-finds-typical-home-buye...). Most homebuyers are not single (https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/in-the-news/single-women-are-more-likely-to-own-homes-than-single-men-why-the-hill https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/in-the-news/single-women-ar...)
  - HaZeust 2y ago
    "Household income" is often a joint statistic. $110K comes out to roughly 55K each. You're not making the assertions you think.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Yes I am - the typical college grad makes $65K - the typical homebuyer is not single. - the typical household has two earners.
      - HaZeust 2y ago
        I guess I'm confused by your take then, and the evidence you use to support it. You stated "But you move up in your career just like everyone else does" from a 65-75K starting salary as a college grad, when your own figures show that the average household income is oftentimes comprised of two people making even less than that, but have reached the stage of upwards mobility to buy a house, albeit oftentimes "house-broke" and in strife to pay mortgages. These people didn't move up, as per your assessment. Most people need to combine salaries with someone else to even have a fair chance in this system, to get any upwards mobility.
belter 2y ago
> For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college and should be making way more than me in three years. What bubble do you live in? "US Tech Layoffs Continue In 2025 With Big Tech Scaling Worker Counts And Fintech, E-Commerce Sectors Reporting Total Shutdowns" - https://news.crunchbase.com/startups/tech-layoffs/ https://news.crunchbase.com/startups/tech-layoffs/ "Computer science grads say the job market is rough. Some are opting for a ‘panic’ master’s degree instead." - https://www.businessinsider.nl/computer-science-grads-say-the-job-market-is-rough-some-are-opting-for-a-panic-masters-degree-instead/ https://www.businessinsider.nl/computer-science-grads-say-th... https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1fylku5/are_most_new_grades_unable_to_find_a_tech_job/ https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1fylku5/are_most_... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/15/why-is-it-so-hard-for-recent-college-graduates-to-find-a-decent-job/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/15/why-is-it-...
- anthomtb 2y ago
  Well, he (probably not she) is describing expected earnings once hired, not chances of actually getting hired.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And more to the point, when I mentioned what I was making, I didn’t want to get the response that “you know you could make $400K+ by grinding leetCode and working for a FAANG”.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  You do know that these companies still hire people don’t you?
  - belter 2y ago
    In other Continents :-)
    - 2y ago
mixmastamyk 2y ago
Yes, why don’t you “just” get a job at BigTech? The chances of that are approximately 0%, despite being a much better than average developer/IT person.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  I did a back of the napkin estimate before from all of the sources I could find and the best numbers I could find was that the top paying tech companies employ around 10% of all developers in the US. On the other hand, the average CRUD developer in any major city in the US can make $140K-$170K within seven years of graduating with strategic job hopping
  - mixmastamyk 2y ago
    They specifically select against folks like me (on multiple dimensions) so 0 * any-percentage still equals nada. I might be able to swing the second one when the market improves.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      I myself didn’t get in through the front door. I got in via the consulting division at AWS (Professional Services). Yes it was a full time direct hire under Amazons usual 4 year offer with base + large signing bonus + RSUs. I am no longer there. There are all sorts of non tech white collar jobs at all of the BigTech companies that pay top of market. My best friend was hired in the finance department at Amazon Retail. He is now a director at a smaller place and is just now matching the comp of an L6 at Amazon five years later. There is a better than 50% chance I could get into Google (GCP) doing similar work if I put in the work and learned and could speak about the GCP equivalent of the AWS tech that I know well and where I lead large implementations. But they only do hybrid and I have no desire to work in an office.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Warning, just kind of rat-holing on terminology a little. You've used the phrase "can make" twice now. I've always found that way of expressing it kind of weasel-y. Yes, a software developer "can make" $140-170K, by the definition of "can" meaning a non-zero possibility. A new grad "can make" $100K+. A senior software engineer "can make" $1M/yr. All these things are true. I "can win" the lottery, too, and my kid "can be" president of the USA one day. Also technically true. It's more interesting to talk about typical cases, rather than best-case aspirational ones, which I see you are doing in other parts of the thread (great!). I think HN very often mistakes the best case for the typical case, especially when we talk about salaries. Even using typical case, salary means and medians don't tell the whole story, as the distributions can be wild.
llamaimperative 2y ago
“People who get to work in the highly coveted, rather small, highest revenue-per-employee sector in human history should be just fine!” Uhh yeah…
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Well, first, the reply was to someone who doesn’t know how they will survive probably making five or six times what the median income is. Second, I posted statistics where even the average college grad can still make it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42794546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42794546
  - CharlieDigital 2y ago
    "survive" typically means "maintain this quality of life". If I were to be displaced by AI, I'm not sure how I'd the mortgage and two kids (that an average college grad doesn't have). I could sell the house and net several hundred thousand dollars, but if I want to keep the kids in the same district, it's a wash because the township has been fervently fighting fair-value housing.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      So your complaint is that because of AI, you might not be able to maintain the lifestyle that puts you in I assume at least the top 5% of earners and make around $350K (https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/)? The average household is making less than $100k a year (same source) and are somehow surviving, you might have to make different life choices.
  - digital_sawzall 2y ago
    I hate to say but that's a 'boomer take' but you sound like a parody of a tiktok skit.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
ArlenBales 2y ago
> For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college Maybe, if new grad is defined as: - A remarkable programmer on their own time. i.e. Impressive Github profile, side projects, leetcode expert, etc. Just going through Comp Sci isn't going to get you hired at BigTech today. - Someone with a fantastic network. Better hope you've got friends in high places or family with connections.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Go to salary.com and select any major city in the US and see what a senior software engineer makes. Anecdotally, I spent my entire career between 1996- 2020 working local jobs in Atlanta. Which is not exactly a tech hub. Look at the compensation of your standard non tech well known companies that are either based in Atlanta or have a large presence like Delta, Home Depot, Coke, GE (GE Transportation), State Farm. I’ve never studied a line of leetcode nor have I had a GitHub portfolio my entire career until 2021.
- ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
  Amazon/Microsoft/Meta all hire new college grads, and all will have a total comp above 165k. You do not need an impressive Github profile, these companies are almost entirely leetcode interview based.
connectsnk 2y ago
I am in a similar boat. Many of us in similar boats would be very thankful if you can expand on what are the names of these consulting companies and how can we breakthrough?
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Honestly, there is no easy way. It was partially strategic and partially luck. I started down this path in 2016. The only actionable advice I can give is start taking on projects with greater scope, impact and that is closer to dealing with the “business”. Work on your soft skills and presentation skills. My favorite book is “The Geek Leaders Handbook” 2016 - I chose a job that would give me a chance to lead my first green field major implementation from scratch over one that paid more. But I would have just been pulling tickets off the board. I was first exposed to AWS here. But “consultants” did all of the AWS setup. After I started learning AWS, I realized that they were just a bunch of old school operations people. I thought I could be a better consultant since I knew software development and could learn cloud. 2018 - this happened https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446115 2020 - a job at AWS ProServe fell into my lap https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38474212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38474212 2023 - After getting Amazoned, I got a full time job at a 3rd party consulting company doing the same thing. 2024 - left there and got another job as a “staff software architect” at another consulting company. And this is what I do now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42709059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42709059
  - connectsnk 2y ago
    This is hugely helpful and one of the most helpful things I read. Thanks for your kindness. This is a very good blueprint on how to think about career advancement at our age. Thanks again
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      No problem

ebiester 2y ago

Yes, but how is that 15 year old going to do the same? What about the ones who don't end up winning the career lottery? We need this to be possible for two people making 40k a year, not 140.

scarface_74 2y ago
A new college grad across all fields has a median earning of $65K - $75K (https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-college-graduate-salary/#inequalities https://www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-college...). No you can’t buy a house straight out of school. But you move up in your career just like everyone else does. From that same citation, look at the median starting salary in engineering disciplines - over $100K. The median household income of homebuyers is around $110K. (https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/nar-finds-typical-home-buyers-annual-household-income-climbed-to-record-high-of-107000 https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/nar-finds-typical-home-buye...). Most homebuyers are not single (https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/in-the-news/single-women-are-more-likely-to-own-homes-than-single-men-why-the-hill https://www.nar.realtor/newsroom/in-the-news/single-women-ar...)
- HaZeust 2y ago
  "Household income" is often a joint statistic. $110K comes out to roughly 55K each. You're not making the assertions you think.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    Yes I am - the typical college grad makes $65K - the typical homebuyer is not single. - the typical household has two earners.
    - HaZeust 2y ago
      I guess I'm confused by your take then, and the evidence you use to support it. You stated "But you move up in your career just like everyone else does" from a 65-75K starting salary as a college grad, when your own figures show that the average household income is oftentimes comprised of two people making even less than that, but have reached the stage of upwards mobility to buy a house, albeit oftentimes "house-broke" and in strife to pay mortgages. These people didn't move up, as per your assessment. Most people need to combine salaries with someone else to even have a fair chance in this system, to get any upwards mobility.

belter 2y ago

> For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college and should be making way more than me in three years. What bubble do you live in? "US Tech Layoffs Continue In 2025 With Big Tech Scaling Worker Counts And Fintech, E-Commerce Sectors Reporting Total Shutdowns" - https://news.crunchbase.com/startups/tech-layoffs/ https://news.crunchbase.com/startups/tech-layoffs/ "Computer science grads say the job market is rough. Some are opting for a ‘panic’ master’s degree instead." - https://www.businessinsider.nl/computer-science-grads-say-the-job-market-is-rough-some-are-opting-for-a-panic-masters-degree-instead/ https://www.businessinsider.nl/computer-science-grads-say-th... https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1fylku5/are_most_new_grades_unable_to_find_a_tech_job/ https://www.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1fylku5/are_most_... https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/15/why-is-it-so-hard-for-recent-college-graduates-to-find-a-decent-job/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2024/02/15/why-is-it-...

anthomtb 2y ago
Well, he (probably not she) is describing expected earnings once hired, not chances of actually getting hired.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  And more to the point, when I mentioned what I was making, I didn’t want to get the response that “you know you could make $400K+ by grinding leetCode and working for a FAANG”.
scarface_74 2y ago
You do know that these companies still hire people don’t you?
- belter 2y ago
  In other Continents :-)
  - 2y ago

mixmastamyk 2y ago

Yes, why don’t you “just” get a job at BigTech? The chances of that are approximately 0%, despite being a much better than average developer/IT person.

scarface_74 2y ago
I did a back of the napkin estimate before from all of the sources I could find and the best numbers I could find was that the top paying tech companies employ around 10% of all developers in the US. On the other hand, the average CRUD developer in any major city in the US can make $140K-$170K within seven years of graduating with strategic job hopping
- mixmastamyk 2y ago
  They specifically select against folks like me (on multiple dimensions) so 0 * any-percentage still equals nada. I might be able to swing the second one when the market improves.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    I myself didn’t get in through the front door. I got in via the consulting division at AWS (Professional Services). Yes it was a full time direct hire under Amazons usual 4 year offer with base + large signing bonus + RSUs. I am no longer there. There are all sorts of non tech white collar jobs at all of the BigTech companies that pay top of market. My best friend was hired in the finance department at Amazon Retail. He is now a director at a smaller place and is just now matching the comp of an L6 at Amazon five years later. There is a better than 50% chance I could get into Google (GCP) doing similar work if I put in the work and learned and could speak about the GCP equivalent of the AWS tech that I know well and where I lead large implementations. But they only do hybrid and I have no desire to work in an office.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Warning, just kind of rat-holing on terminology a little. You've used the phrase "can make" twice now. I've always found that way of expressing it kind of weasel-y. Yes, a software developer "can make" $140-170K, by the definition of "can" meaning a non-zero possibility. A new grad "can make" $100K+. A senior software engineer "can make" $1M/yr. All these things are true. I "can win" the lottery, too, and my kid "can be" president of the USA one day. Also technically true. It's more interesting to talk about typical cases, rather than best-case aspirational ones, which I see you are doing in other parts of the thread (great!). I think HN very often mistakes the best case for the typical case, especially when we talk about salaries. Even using typical case, salary means and medians don't tell the whole story, as the distributions can be wild.

llamaimperative 2y ago

“People who get to work in the highly coveted, rather small, highest revenue-per-employee sector in human history should be just fine!” Uhh yeah…

scarface_74 2y ago
Well, first, the reply was to someone who doesn’t know how they will survive probably making five or six times what the median income is. Second, I posted statistics where even the average college grad can still make it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42794546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42794546
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  "survive" typically means "maintain this quality of life". If I were to be displaced by AI, I'm not sure how I'd the mortgage and two kids (that an average college grad doesn't have). I could sell the house and net several hundred thousand dollars, but if I want to keep the kids in the same district, it's a wash because the township has been fervently fighting fair-value housing.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    So your complaint is that because of AI, you might not be able to maintain the lifestyle that puts you in I assume at least the top 5% of earners and make around $350K (https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/)? The average household is making less than $100k a year (same source) and are somehow surviving, you might have to make different life choices.
- digital_sawzall 2y ago
  I hate to say but that's a 'boomer take' but you sound like a parody of a tiktok skit.
  - scarface_74 2y ago

ArlenBales 2y ago

> For those who don’t know, a new grad going into any of the BigTech companies can make around $165K straight out of college Maybe, if new grad is defined as: - A remarkable programmer on their own time. i.e. Impressive Github profile, side projects, leetcode expert, etc. Just going through Comp Sci isn't going to get you hired at BigTech today. - Someone with a fantastic network. Better hope you've got friends in high places or family with connections.

scarface_74 2y ago
Go to salary.com and select any major city in the US and see what a senior software engineer makes. Anecdotally, I spent my entire career between 1996- 2020 working local jobs in Atlanta. Which is not exactly a tech hub. Look at the compensation of your standard non tech well known companies that are either based in Atlanta or have a large presence like Delta, Home Depot, Coke, GE (GE Transportation), State Farm. I’ve never studied a line of leetcode nor have I had a GitHub portfolio my entire career until 2021.
ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
Amazon/Microsoft/Meta all hire new college grads, and all will have a total comp above 165k. You do not need an impressive Github profile, these companies are almost entirely leetcode interview based.

connectsnk 2y ago

I am in a similar boat. Many of us in similar boats would be very thankful if you can expand on what are the names of these consulting companies and how can we breakthrough?

scarface_74 2y ago
Honestly, there is no easy way. It was partially strategic and partially luck. I started down this path in 2016. The only actionable advice I can give is start taking on projects with greater scope, impact and that is closer to dealing with the “business”. Work on your soft skills and presentation skills. My favorite book is “The Geek Leaders Handbook” 2016 - I chose a job that would give me a chance to lead my first green field major implementation from scratch over one that paid more. But I would have just been pulling tickets off the board. I was first exposed to AWS here. But “consultants” did all of the AWS setup. After I started learning AWS, I realized that they were just a bunch of old school operations people. I thought I could be a better consultant since I knew software development and could learn cloud. 2018 - this happened https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37446115 2020 - a job at AWS ProServe fell into my lap https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38474212 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38474212 2023 - After getting Amazoned, I got a full time job at a 3rd party consulting company doing the same thing. 2024 - left there and got another job as a “staff software architect” at another consulting company. And this is what I do now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42709059 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42709059
- connectsnk 2y ago
  This is hugely helpful and one of the most helpful things I read. Thanks for your kindness. This is a very good blueprint on how to think about career advancement at our age. Thanks again
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    No problem