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Ellison should be nowhere near this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/09/omnipresent-ai-cameras-will-ensure-good-behavior-says-larry-ellison

Ellison should be nowhere near this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/09/omnipresent-ai-cameras-will-ensure-good-behavior-says-larry-ellison/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2024/09/omnip... The man has the moral system of a private prison and the money to build one.

siva7 2y ago
> "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on," Let's be honest. He isn't wrong. I'd rather live in a society with zero crime than what we have now.
- noisy_boy 2y ago
  Just be prepared to be never daring to complain; a zero crime society isn't without its faults.
- ajmurmann 2y ago
  Yes we have historically low low crime. It's unbearable. There are a number of countries that might give you a panopticon state of you want one
  - vtashkov 2y ago
    Yeah, historically low crime because a lot of the crime is not considered crime anymore. Why thousands of stores are closing in California?
    - RajT88 2y ago
      Well and good as a talking point, but violent crime is still illegal and way down.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ryandamm 2y ago
      Walgreen’s was closing stores anyway and used the pandemic shoplifting as an excuse… but it was never the actual reason. Crime is at historical lows.
      - ajmurmann 2y ago
        Even if shoplifting at Walgreens was the reason for closure, the downtowns of a few "liberal cities" (it's always the same 3-4 mentioned) are extremely unlikely to have that much impact on national statistics.
    - moogly 2y ago
      > Why thousands of stores are closing in California? Because everyone's buying everything online and getting it delivered to their homes.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      The retail industry lobbying group itself noted that "shrink", the term for loss of revenue due to items walking off or being damaged, has remained unchanged since the 90s. The people telling you that there is an immense wave of shoplifting are outright lying.
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    This is up to debate. The FBI and DOJ numbers disagree with each other. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/11/03/violent-crime-property-data-nibrs-ucr-fbi-2022 https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/11/03/violent-crime-...
- wadim 2y ago
  If you're lucky, you might get your chance to live in Thiel's and Ellison's techbro utopia. Make sure to tell us how great it is to be subjected to people with no accountability, but all of the power over every aspect of your life.
- mattlutze 2y ago
  There's a few that have tried to implement this, and I want to live in none of them. The US will fare no better if it walks down this path, and honestly will likely fare worse for it's cultural obsession with individualism over community.
- YinglingHeavy 2y ago
  You stop abuse in this country, particularly of children, and you start having zero violent crime a decade later.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Sorry to break it to you, but oppressing people with cameras to prevent crime will only push the crime to where the cameras aren't. This makes preventing the crime and protecting people from effects of these crimes extremely difficult.
- javcasas 2y ago
  So having a policeman in each street and corner, except the policeman bias is set by these four oligarchs. Welcome to... choose among many of the technodystopies in literature.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Move to China. You’ll love it. Not only does it have lower crime by virtue of being highly controlled, it also has the added benefit of you never hearing about crimes the government doesn’t want you to hear about, and you won’t hear about any police corruption or brutality either. Ignorance is bliss!
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    You also don't need to sell your company when you innovate, your well-connected oligarch has either already gotten what you're doing or can seize it without consequence.
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      it's "technology transfer", not "seizure" ;)
- freedomben 2y ago
  Philosophically I agree, this sounds nice. A bit false dichotomy-ish, but nice. But if you think about it, an unstated yet necessary prerequisite is that the definition of "crime" must be morally aligned with what is right. If it's not, well then you're living in a dystopia. Imagine a world where slavery is still legal and being a runaway slave is a crime. How do people like Frederick Douglass escape and survive long enough to make a difference? And that's before we get into the prerequisite that such a state must apply the laws completely evenly with no special tiers based on class, wealth, political connection, celebrity status, etc, which AFAIK has never been done. Given the leadership, it doesn't look like it's goig to happen anytime soon. IMHO I think it's heavily contrary to human nature and just won't be achievable short of altering human nature.
- laurentiurad 2y ago
  Who will supervise the gate keepers?
spacechild1 2y ago
> "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on," Ellison said, describing what he sees as the benefits from automated oversight from AI and automated alerts for when crime takes place. Wow! It is genuinely frightening that these people should be in control of our future!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  Literal 'new world order' stuff here. Alex Jones and crew got so excited that their guy was in the driver's seat that they didn't notice the actual illuminati lizard people space lasers being deployed.
lenerdenator 2y ago
We keep saying people like him shouldn't be involved in certain ventures, and yet, they still are. More than ever, actually.
- oldpersonintx 2y ago
  [dead]
pj_mukh 2y ago
I don't think we'll ever have a zero-crime society, neither should we aim to be one. But being left to the vagaries of police (and union) politics, culture and the complications of city budgets is clearly broken. Example: Cities are being presented a false choice between accepting deadly high speed chases vs zero criminal accountability [1], which in the world of drones seems silly [2] I don't want the police to have unfettered access to surveil any and all citizens but putting camera access behind a court warrant issued by a civilian elected judge doesn't feel that dystopian to me. Is that what Ellison was alluding to? I have no idea, but we are no longer in a world where we should disregard this prima facie. [1]: https://www.ktvu.com/news/controversial-oakland-police-pursuit-policy-up-debate https://www.ktvu.com/news/controversial-oakland-police-pursu... [2]: https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-police-celebrate-crime-fighting-efforts-utilizing-drone-technology/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-poli...
- TomatoCo 2y ago
  > I don't think we'll ever have a zero-crime society, neither should we aim to be one. This reminded me of https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fraud/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...
aswanson 2y ago
2025 is shaping up to be When the Villains Win year.
thelastgallon 2y ago
<quote> Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on," Ellison said, describing what he sees as the benefits from automated oversight from AI and automated alerts for when crime takes place. "We're going to have supervision," he continued. "Every police officer is going to be supervised at all times, and if there's a problem, AI will report the problem and report it to the appropriate person. </quote> What is far more important to understand is to ignore all that nonsense and focus on who makes money? It will be Ellison and his buddies making tens of billions of dollars/year selling 'solutions' to local governments, all paid by your property taxes. This also enables an ecosystem of theft, where others benefit a lot more. With the nexus of Private Prisons, kids for cash judges (or judges investing in stock of prisons), DEA/police unions, DEA unions, small rural towns increasing prison population (because they get added to the total pop, and get funds allocated). More importantly this is extremely attractive to police who can steal billions every day from civil forfeiture, they have access to anyone who makes a bank withdrawal or transacts in cash, all displayed in real time feeds, ready for grabbing!
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
throw-the-towel 2y ago
Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mike_hearn 2y ago
That's a pretty deceptive and ragebaity article. If you look at the original video [1], starting at 1:09:00, he's talking specifically about police body/dashcams recording interactions with citizens during callouts and stops, not everyone all the time as that article strongly implies. The USA already decided to record what police see all the time during these events, so there's no new privacy issue posed by anything he's suggesting. The question is only how those videos are used. In particular, he points out that police are allowed to turn off bodycams for privacy reasons (e.g. bathroom breaks), which is a legitimate need but it can also be abused, and AI can fix this loophole. In the same segment he also proposes using AI to watch CCTV at schools in real time to trigger instant response if someone pulls out a gun, and using AI to spot wildfires using drones. For some reason the media didn't condemn those ideas, just the part about supervising cop stops. How curious. [1] https://www.oracle.com/events/financial-analyst-meeting-2024/ https://www.oracle.com/events/financial-analyst-meeting-2024...

siva7 2y ago

> "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on," Let's be honest. He isn't wrong. I'd rather live in a society with zero crime than what we have now.

noisy_boy 2y ago
Just be prepared to be never daring to complain; a zero crime society isn't without its faults.
ajmurmann 2y ago
Yes we have historically low low crime. It's unbearable. There are a number of countries that might give you a panopticon state of you want one
- vtashkov 2y ago
  Yeah, historically low crime because a lot of the crime is not considered crime anymore. Why thousands of stores are closing in California?
  - RajT88 2y ago
    Well and good as a talking point, but violent crime is still illegal and way down.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryandamm 2y ago
    Walgreen’s was closing stores anyway and used the pandemic shoplifting as an excuse… but it was never the actual reason. Crime is at historical lows.
    - ajmurmann 2y ago
      Even if shoplifting at Walgreens was the reason for closure, the downtowns of a few "liberal cities" (it's always the same 3-4 mentioned) are extremely unlikely to have that much impact on national statistics.
  - moogly 2y ago
    > Why thousands of stores are closing in California? Because everyone's buying everything online and getting it delivered to their homes.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    The retail industry lobbying group itself noted that "shrink", the term for loss of revenue due to items walking off or being damaged, has remained unchanged since the 90s. The people telling you that there is an immense wave of shoplifting are outright lying.
- ImJamal 2y ago
  This is up to debate. The FBI and DOJ numbers disagree with each other. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/11/03/violent-crime-property-data-nibrs-ucr-fbi-2022 https://www.themarshallproject.org/2023/11/03/violent-crime-...
wadim 2y ago
If you're lucky, you might get your chance to live in Thiel's and Ellison's techbro utopia. Make sure to tell us how great it is to be subjected to people with no accountability, but all of the power over every aspect of your life.
mattlutze 2y ago
There's a few that have tried to implement this, and I want to live in none of them. The US will fare no better if it walks down this path, and honestly will likely fare worse for it's cultural obsession with individualism over community.
YinglingHeavy 2y ago
You stop abuse in this country, particularly of children, and you start having zero violent crime a decade later.
bayindirh 2y ago
Sorry to break it to you, but oppressing people with cameras to prevent crime will only push the crime to where the cameras aren't. This makes preventing the crime and protecting people from effects of these crimes extremely difficult.
javcasas 2y ago
So having a policeman in each street and corner, except the policeman bias is set by these four oligarchs. Welcome to... choose among many of the technodystopies in literature.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Move to China. You’ll love it. Not only does it have lower crime by virtue of being highly controlled, it also has the added benefit of you never hearing about crimes the government doesn’t want you to hear about, and you won’t hear about any police corruption or brutality either. Ignorance is bliss!
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  You also don't need to sell your company when you innovate, your well-connected oligarch has either already gotten what you're doing or can seize it without consequence.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    it's "technology transfer", not "seizure" ;)
freedomben 2y ago
Philosophically I agree, this sounds nice. A bit false dichotomy-ish, but nice. But if you think about it, an unstated yet necessary prerequisite is that the definition of "crime" must be morally aligned with what is right. If it's not, well then you're living in a dystopia. Imagine a world where slavery is still legal and being a runaway slave is a crime. How do people like Frederick Douglass escape and survive long enough to make a difference? And that's before we get into the prerequisite that such a state must apply the laws completely evenly with no special tiers based on class, wealth, political connection, celebrity status, etc, which AFAIK has never been done. Given the leadership, it doesn't look like it's goig to happen anytime soon. IMHO I think it's heavily contrary to human nature and just won't be achievable short of altering human nature.
laurentiurad 2y ago
Who will supervise the gate keepers?

spacechild1 2y ago

> "Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on," Ellison said, describing what he sees as the benefits from automated oversight from AI and automated alerts for when crime takes place. Wow! It is genuinely frightening that these people should be in control of our future!

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
idiotsecant 2y ago
Literal 'new world order' stuff here. Alex Jones and crew got so excited that their guy was in the driver's seat that they didn't notice the actual illuminati lizard people space lasers being deployed.

lenerdenator 2y ago

We keep saying people like him shouldn't be involved in certain ventures, and yet, they still are. More than ever, actually.

oldpersonintx 2y ago
[dead]

pj_mukh 2y ago

I don't think we'll ever have a zero-crime society, neither should we aim to be one. But being left to the vagaries of police (and union) politics, culture and the complications of city budgets is clearly broken. Example: Cities are being presented a false choice between accepting deadly high speed chases vs zero criminal accountability [1], which in the world of drones seems silly [2] I don't want the police to have unfettered access to surveil any and all citizens but putting camera access behind a court warrant issued by a civilian elected judge doesn't feel that dystopian to me. Is that what Ellison was alluding to? I have no idea, but we are no longer in a world where we should disregard this prima facie. [1]: https://www.ktvu.com/news/controversial-oakland-police-pursuit-policy-up-debate https://www.ktvu.com/news/controversial-oakland-police-pursu... [2]: https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-police-celebrate-crime-fighting-efforts-utilizing-drone-technology/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/san-francisco-poli...

TomatoCo 2y ago
> I don't think we'll ever have a zero-crime society, neither should we aim to be one. This reminded me of https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fraud/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-fra...

aswanson 2y ago

2025 is shaping up to be When the Villains Win year.

thelastgallon 2y ago

<quote> Citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on," Ellison said, describing what he sees as the benefits from automated oversight from AI and automated alerts for when crime takes place. "We're going to have supervision," he continued. "Every police officer is going to be supervised at all times, and if there's a problem, AI will report the problem and report it to the appropriate person. </quote> What is far more important to understand is to ignore all that nonsense and focus on who makes money? It will be Ellison and his buddies making tens of billions of dollars/year selling 'solutions' to local governments, all paid by your property taxes. This also enables an ecosystem of theft, where others benefit a lot more. With the nexus of Private Prisons, kids for cash judges (or judges investing in stock of prisons), DEA/police unions, DEA unions, small rural towns increasing prison population (because they get added to the total pop, and get funds allocated). More importantly this is extremely attractive to police who can steal billions every day from civil forfeiture, they have access to anyone who makes a bank withdrawal or transacts in cash, all displayed in real time feeds, ready for grabbing!

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

throw-the-towel 2y ago

Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphizing Larry Ellison. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mike_hearn 2y ago

That's a pretty deceptive and ragebaity article. If you look at the original video [1], starting at 1:09:00, he's talking specifically about police body/dashcams recording interactions with citizens during callouts and stops, not everyone all the time as that article strongly implies. The USA already decided to record what police see all the time during these events, so there's no new privacy issue posed by anything he's suggesting. The question is only how those videos are used. In particular, he points out that police are allowed to turn off bodycams for privacy reasons (e.g. bathroom breaks), which is a legitimate need but it can also be abused, and AI can fix this loophole. In the same segment he also proposes using AI to watch CCTV at schools in real time to trigger instant response if someone pulls out a gun, and using AI to spot wildfires using drones. For some reason the media didn't condemn those ideas, just the part about supervising cop stops. How curious. [1] https://www.oracle.com/events/financial-analyst-meeting-2024/ https://www.oracle.com/events/financial-analyst-meeting-2024...