4 ms·

Madoff stole $20-35B, but by some measures a human life is only worth $10M. I am not really asserting those figures are comparable, just that Madoff stole a lot

by loeg 2y ago

Madoff stole $20-35B, but by some measures a human life is only worth $10M. I am not really asserting those figures are comparable, just that Madoff stole a lot of money.

insane_dreamer 2y ago
Nah, it's more that you do not fuck with the money system. SBF is learning that same lesson. Jeff Skilling (Enron) served 12 years in jail for insider trading and securities. Not saying that Skilling, Maddoff or SBF shouldn't have gone to jail. They deserved it. But I do find it interesting that financial crimes can tend to be the most harshly judged, likely because of who they impact (the people with money) and because they cause distrust of the financial system as a whole. > Madoff stole $20-35B Not to defend Madoff, but it's not like he made off with that money himself, so I'm not sure "stole" is the correct term. Most of that money went to investors -- it just went to a different set of investors than the ones who had put that money in (the nature of a Ponzi scheme).
- dmix 2y ago
  > Nah, it's more that you do not fuck with the money system. Isn't a common critique of the justice system that white-collar crime gets you less prison time (in nicer jails) than being for ex a drug dealer? Plenty of finance scammers and conmen who stole millions get <5-10yr sentences
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    yes, unless you're a big enough finance scammer that you stole from really rich people (most scammers who steal millions don't get it from the very rich)
    - mattmaroon 2y ago
      People have gone to jail for longer for selling weed, I think the argument that finacial crimes get you longer prison sentences is absurd.
      - insane_dreamer 2y ago
        I didn't say financial crimes in general, I specifically said financial crimes on a level that impact a large number of very rich people.
        mattmaroon 2y ago
        But even then the times aren't longer than someone who gets caught with a 100 grams of coke. Skilling got 12 years for a financial fraud so heinous the whole system was re-regulated. You get that for selling crack on the corner.
        insane_dreamer 2y ago
        There’s no question that the “war on drugs” sentencing is ridiculously out of proportion with the actual harm done, especially if you’re not white or upper class. I was making a comparison between types of financial crimes.
        mattmaroon 2y ago
        I mean if you’re saying bigger financial crimes get larger than smaller ones, ok?
  - DrillShopper 2y ago
    In those cases it's not about how much they stole but who they stole from? Steal the pensions and other retirement funds of millions? At worst, slap on the wrist. Steal a single dollar from a single billionaire? Hope you like solitary, buddy.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      Yup, these numbers are high, but just check out decades of wage theft and you realize it's only legal to steal from the poor.
- microtherion 2y ago
  I expect SBF will be out soonish. He's exactly the sort of white collar crook that Trump would pardon.
  - ar_lan 2y ago
    I think there's almost no chance. SBF is a perfect example of someone to throw the book at. He's effectively Madoff 2.0, the people everyone from the lowly to the elite hate. Ross Ulbricht is a very unique, interesting case. I don't for a second believe that Trump has any moral imperative with pardoning him, but his sentence for the crimes he was prosecuted for was very clearly unjustly large in an extensively murky case. There's also a whole slew of benefits to Trump for pardoning him - it's largely perceived as very pro-crypto, pro-libertarian (ironic), etc.
    - ArnoVW 2y ago
      In any sane democracy I would agree with you. But this POTUS has pardoned 1500 people that actively participates in an insurrection, some of who hurt and even killed police officers. He's pardoned a the Dread Pirate Roberts. All of those people were perfect people to throw the book at. For the next 2 years all bets are off.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      From what I read, the Ulbricht pardon was part of a deal at the Libertarian National Convention. So it's just business as usual. Broken clocks and all that. I entirely agree that he may have a potential muder conviction on his case, but they instead threw the book at him for a much lesser crime for a way too large sentence. Especially if we compare it to the War on Drugs.
- pseingatl 2y ago
  Hasn't the Trustee recovered 90% of the money invested? Phantom returns were ignored; at the time of the arrest the phantom returns were considered money lost.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > Not to defend Madoff, but it's not like he made off with that money himself, so I'm not sure "stole" is the correct term. What else would the term be? Did you always feel that Robin Hood was being unfairly maligned when he was described as robbing from the rich and giving to the poor?
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    It's the same level as saying "tech companies stole from the populace". Which is ethically correct but legally wrong. I guess that's the distinction GP wants to make.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    cheat, lie
nearbuy 2y ago
If someone robs a bank, or steals a wallet, they're probably hoping to get as much money as they can. If that wallet happened to $1B in it, I don't think it makes the thief more heinous. If we sentence people based on the amount of money they manage to steal, we're sentencing them largely based on luck.
- Rnonymous 2y ago
  If you shoot someone and hit their head killing them or just their ear, its a matter of luck (and possibly skill), the charges are different. The justice system judges based on intent as well as outcome (i.e. execution X luck).
  - tehwebguy 2y ago
    Norm: Murder and attempted murder are the same thing Seinfeld: Different skill level
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      well you're not wrong. That attempted Trump assassination was a few inches away from being in the same books as John Wilkes Booth, instead of being talked about for less than a week and then forgotten. Sentences would have been night and day.
    - pseingatl 2y ago
      Murder is just agg assault with one less witness.
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    Well, also, if you’re a competent murderer, you’re more dangerous to society, which is the reason we lock people up
  - nearbuy 2y ago
    Many jurisdictions have the same punishment for attempted murder and murder though. I get that there are different views on how much punishment should be based on intent vs outcome. My opinion is factoring in outcome in criminal sentences is often pragmatic, but if we had omniscient judges, judging on intent would be ideal.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by loeg 2y ago

Madoff stole $20-35B, but by some measures a human life is only worth $10M. I am not really asserting those figures are comparable, just that Madoff stole a lot of money.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

Nah, it's more that you do not fuck with the money system. SBF is learning that same lesson. Jeff Skilling (Enron) served 12 years in jail for insider trading and securities. Not saying that Skilling, Maddoff or SBF shouldn't have gone to jail. They deserved it. But I do find it interesting that financial crimes can tend to be the most harshly judged, likely because of who they impact (the people with money) and because they cause distrust of the financial system as a whole. > Madoff stole $20-35B Not to defend Madoff, but it's not like he made off with that money himself, so I'm not sure "stole" is the correct term. Most of that money went to investors -- it just went to a different set of investors than the ones who had put that money in (the nature of a Ponzi scheme).

dmix 2y ago
> Nah, it's more that you do not fuck with the money system. Isn't a common critique of the justice system that white-collar crime gets you less prison time (in nicer jails) than being for ex a drug dealer? Plenty of finance scammers and conmen who stole millions get <5-10yr sentences
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  yes, unless you're a big enough finance scammer that you stole from really rich people (most scammers who steal millions don't get it from the very rich)
  - mattmaroon 2y ago
    People have gone to jail for longer for selling weed, I think the argument that finacial crimes get you longer prison sentences is absurd.
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      I didn't say financial crimes in general, I specifically said financial crimes on a level that impact a large number of very rich people.
      - mattmaroon 2y ago
        But even then the times aren't longer than someone who gets caught with a 100 grams of coke. Skilling got 12 years for a financial fraud so heinous the whole system was re-regulated. You get that for selling crack on the corner.
        insane_dreamer 2y ago
        There’s no question that the “war on drugs” sentencing is ridiculously out of proportion with the actual harm done, especially if you’re not white or upper class. I was making a comparison between types of financial crimes.
        mattmaroon 2y ago
        I mean if you’re saying bigger financial crimes get larger than smaller ones, ok?
- DrillShopper 2y ago
  In those cases it's not about how much they stole but who they stole from? Steal the pensions and other retirement funds of millions? At worst, slap on the wrist. Steal a single dollar from a single billionaire? Hope you like solitary, buddy.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    Yup, these numbers are high, but just check out decades of wage theft and you realize it's only legal to steal from the poor.
microtherion 2y ago
I expect SBF will be out soonish. He's exactly the sort of white collar crook that Trump would pardon.
- ar_lan 2y ago
  I think there's almost no chance. SBF is a perfect example of someone to throw the book at. He's effectively Madoff 2.0, the people everyone from the lowly to the elite hate. Ross Ulbricht is a very unique, interesting case. I don't for a second believe that Trump has any moral imperative with pardoning him, but his sentence for the crimes he was prosecuted for was very clearly unjustly large in an extensively murky case. There's also a whole slew of benefits to Trump for pardoning him - it's largely perceived as very pro-crypto, pro-libertarian (ironic), etc.
  - ArnoVW 2y ago
    In any sane democracy I would agree with you. But this POTUS has pardoned 1500 people that actively participates in an insurrection, some of who hurt and even killed police officers. He's pardoned a the Dread Pirate Roberts. All of those people were perfect people to throw the book at. For the next 2 years all bets are off.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    From what I read, the Ulbricht pardon was part of a deal at the Libertarian National Convention. So it's just business as usual. Broken clocks and all that. I entirely agree that he may have a potential muder conviction on his case, but they instead threw the book at him for a much lesser crime for a way too large sentence. Especially if we compare it to the War on Drugs.
pseingatl 2y ago
Hasn't the Trustee recovered 90% of the money invested? Phantom returns were ignored; at the time of the arrest the phantom returns were considered money lost.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> Not to defend Madoff, but it's not like he made off with that money himself, so I'm not sure "stole" is the correct term. What else would the term be? Did you always feel that Robin Hood was being unfairly maligned when he was described as robbing from the rich and giving to the poor?
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  It's the same level as saying "tech companies stole from the populace". Which is ethically correct but legally wrong. I guess that's the distinction GP wants to make.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  cheat, lie

nearbuy 2y ago

If someone robs a bank, or steals a wallet, they're probably hoping to get as much money as they can. If that wallet happened to $1B in it, I don't think it makes the thief more heinous. If we sentence people based on the amount of money they manage to steal, we're sentencing them largely based on luck.

Rnonymous 2y ago
If you shoot someone and hit their head killing them or just their ear, its a matter of luck (and possibly skill), the charges are different. The justice system judges based on intent as well as outcome (i.e. execution X luck).
- tehwebguy 2y ago
  Norm: Murder and attempted murder are the same thing Seinfeld: Different skill level
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    well you're not wrong. That attempted Trump assassination was a few inches away from being in the same books as John Wilkes Booth, instead of being talked about for less than a week and then forgotten. Sentences would have been night and day.
  - pseingatl 2y ago
    Murder is just agg assault with one less witness.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  Well, also, if you’re a competent murderer, you’re more dangerous to society, which is the reason we lock people up
- nearbuy 2y ago
  Many jurisdictions have the same punishment for attempted murder and murder though. I get that there are different views on how much punishment should be based on intent vs outcome. My opinion is factoring in outcome in criminal sentences is often pragmatic, but if we had omniscient judges, judging on intent would be ideal.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]