3 ms·

> I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. We tried that in SF, I was a supporter. Seeing it fir

by rib3ye 2y ago

> I wish instead of criminalizing addiction we'd fund harm reduction centers and rehabilitation services. We tried that in SF, I was a supporter. Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Dumping money into people who aren't ready to convert back into tax payers (even in the most basic sense) while schools got the back burner was enough. Not to mention the tents.

cogman10 2y ago
> Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Why is this an either or? SF spends about $1 billion dollars on schools [1] and while the program ran it had around a $40 million dollar budget [2]. For an area that houses huge tech companies, this doesn't seem like an extreme budget to be working with. > Not to mention the tents. Ok? And what options would you give these people, just be homeless somewhere else where you can't see them? [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/2024-06-27-sf-board-education-adopts-plan-and-budget-2024-25-school-year https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/... [2] https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-increase-to-harm-reduction-contract-but-raise-questions-on-outcomes/ https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-i...
- daseiner1 2y ago
  SF spends nearly $1B on the homeless.
  - nine_k 2y ago
    Homeless and drug addicts are not the same. Letting the homeless block streets with tents is not the same as caring for them, or rehabilitating them.
    - daseiner1 2y ago
      correct. my comment was intended to point out the disturbing misplacement of priorities, given that the budgets for educating the citizens of the future and for fetty smoking bums are comparable.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    Dollars spent is a poor metric for effectiveness. If you were to become homeless in SF tonight, is there shelter available for you to sleep in?
culi 2y ago
While I think anecdotes are valuable and should not be easily dismissed, we have decades of research and evidence supporting the benefit of harm reduction centers. They reduce risk of overdose morbidity and mortality while not increasing crime or public nuisance to the surrounding community. E.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8541900/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8541900/
- rib3ye 2y ago
  It's just really hard to swallow the findings in this paper (all non-US cities) when you can see such a visible change on the streets in SF since the pandemic. By all official accounts crime is down in SF, but many agree something has changed in the way homeless carry. I would dare to use the word "entitled" to describe the cavalier way large encampments and bicycle chop shops are set up.
  - kcrwfrd_ 2y ago
    I think a confounding variable is that SF also significantly reduced jail sentencing and prosecution of other types of crime during the pandemic.
raverbashing 2y ago
Honestly, it's because SF didn't actually do anything Having harm reduction sites doesn't mean you get to shoot whenever and whatever SF's governance is delirious honestly
miningape 2y ago
Yeah although this is more a consequence of how SF decided to handle it. Rather than decriminalising they're just enabling users. Look towards other countries with similar policies (Portugal, Netherlands, etc.) in their cases they saw a decrease in drug usage and fatalities. The difference is they decided to not encourage their behaviour by allowing open air drug markets to flourish, with kiosks just down the street handing out the necessary paraphernalia.
- ImJamal 2y ago
  The decline in Portugal may have been temporary. https://archive.is/3iXlM https://archive.is/3iXlM
etc-hosts 2y ago
I never did any drugs but when I was growing up, it was understood that you needed to keep your drug use somewhat secret, behind closed doors, hidden from the public, I expected there would be consequences from the police if I decided to do drugs out in the open. Now I see guys doing extremely hard drugs out in the open on the street and on buses. it is a jarring. They're usually not trying to inject or exhale on me ( though the meth smoke guys on some buses don't seem to care ).

by rib3ye 2y ago

cogman10 2y ago

> Seeing it first hand with a with a family member in public school flipped me. Why is this an either or? SF spends about $1 billion dollars on schools [1] and while the program ran it had around a $40 million dollar budget [2]. For an area that houses huge tech companies, this doesn't seem like an extreme budget to be working with. > Not to mention the tents. Ok? And what options would you give these people, just be homeless somewhere else where you can't see them? [1] https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/2024-06-27-sf-board-education-adopts-plan-and-budget-2024-25-school-year https://www.sfusd.edu/about-sfusd/sfusd-news/press-releases/... [2] https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-increase-to-harm-reduction-contract-but-raise-questions-on-outcomes/ https://sfstandard.com/2021/11/17/supervisors-approve-6-5m-i...

daseiner1 2y ago
SF spends nearly $1B on the homeless.
- nine_k 2y ago
  Homeless and drug addicts are not the same. Letting the homeless block streets with tents is not the same as caring for them, or rehabilitating them.
  - daseiner1 2y ago
    correct. my comment was intended to point out the disturbing misplacement of priorities, given that the budgets for educating the citizens of the future and for fetty smoking bums are comparable.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  Dollars spent is a poor metric for effectiveness. If you were to become homeless in SF tonight, is there shelter available for you to sleep in?

culi 2y ago

While I think anecdotes are valuable and should not be easily dismissed, we have decades of research and evidence supporting the benefit of harm reduction centers. They reduce risk of overdose morbidity and mortality while not increasing crime or public nuisance to the surrounding community. E.g. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8541900/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8541900/

rib3ye 2y ago
It's just really hard to swallow the findings in this paper (all non-US cities) when you can see such a visible change on the streets in SF since the pandemic. By all official accounts crime is down in SF, but many agree something has changed in the way homeless carry. I would dare to use the word "entitled" to describe the cavalier way large encampments and bicycle chop shops are set up.
- kcrwfrd_ 2y ago
  I think a confounding variable is that SF also significantly reduced jail sentencing and prosecution of other types of crime during the pandemic.

raverbashing 2y ago

Honestly, it's because SF didn't actually do anything Having harm reduction sites doesn't mean you get to shoot whenever and whatever SF's governance is delirious honestly

miningape 2y ago

Yeah although this is more a consequence of how SF decided to handle it. Rather than decriminalising they're just enabling users. Look towards other countries with similar policies (Portugal, Netherlands, etc.) in their cases they saw a decrease in drug usage and fatalities. The difference is they decided to not encourage their behaviour by allowing open air drug markets to flourish, with kiosks just down the street handing out the necessary paraphernalia.

ImJamal 2y ago
The decline in Portugal may have been temporary. https://archive.is/3iXlM https://archive.is/3iXlM

etc-hosts 2y ago

I never did any drugs but when I was growing up, it was understood that you needed to keep your drug use somewhat secret, behind closed doors, hidden from the public, I expected there would be consequences from the police if I decided to do drugs out in the open. Now I see guys doing extremely hard drugs out in the open on the street and on buses. it is a jarring. They're usually not trying to inject or exhale on me ( though the meth smoke guys on some buses don't seem to care ).