6 ms·

0 XP: The Zynga Counterrevolution

64 points by rrbrambley 14y ago

rrbrambley 14y ago
"There may be no shortage of commentators ready to decry pay-to-win grindfests as 'evil' design, but what’s still needed is a code of ethical game mechanics that provides a yardstick to measure which games and which game designers can be trusted not to unduly manipulate their audience." Couldn't agree more. It's easier than ever to get games in the hands of eager/bored people via mobile and Facebook, and companies are thus capitalizing on these users by building shallow experiences while optimizing for revenues instead of fun. Additionally, I think more game devs need to speak out against the "evil" design. I hear a lot of tech-savvy people talking about this stuff verbally, but is the common person really aware of the amount of time that is spent trying to engineer them into being addicted? I realize that as developers, we don't necessarily benefit from spending a lot more time building something just to end up making less money, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere.
- njharman 14y ago
  > It's easier than ever to get games in the hands of eager/bored people via mobile and Facebook, and companies are thus capitalizing on these users by building shallow experiences while optimizing for revenues instead of fun. Change some of the nouns and that describes most capitalist consumerism. Entertainment, cloths, cars, starbucks et al, etc. (rest of it is based on fear/shame). The root cause is much, much deeper than Zynga or Facebook.
  - hopefully 14y ago
    "Creating a need" is certainly an often employed strategy. I love technology. I'm not very good, I'm not very clever or a great coder, but I'm still more geeky than non-geeks. Now, There are plenty of people who are not deeply fascinated with it, but use technology to make their lives easier. Why can't we just built good things for them, and everybody can go home knowing they haven't been ripping off or been ripped off -- ?? This focus on profit and fads, it's doing my head in. When I was a kid I was ashamed because computers weren't cool, now I'm ashamed because they are, and because of what is done with them without blinking. They're just tools, but he haven't improved much, so we just use them to do BS faster. Come on, there has to be more. /rant
- jcromartie 14y ago
  There are game designers that speak against it strongly, but even gamers put them down as "elitist" or "snobs", because the designers are pretty extreme in their views.
  - rrbrambley 14y ago
    Yeah, well this a problem. It shouldn't be considered extreme to have this point of view.
- hopefully 14y ago
  That yardstick actually has been posted on HN not long ago :) http://fadeyev.net/2012/06/19/moral-design/ http://fadeyev.net/2012/06/19/moral-design/
  - rrbrambley 14y ago
    This is a great read. Thank you for posting this link!
_delirium 14y ago
Wow, Zynga seems to be proving a Poe's Law for videogame design. Cow Clicker seemed like funny satire, but it can no longer compete with this apparently earnest game design, which is literally a slot machine game, except that after inserting your "Bucket of Coins, $19.99", you don't even have a remote chance of getting it back.
comex 14y ago
The article inaccurately represents TF2: you can buy weapons for a few dollars (not 10), but random drops are common enough that even a new player can fairly easily trade them for any weapon he wants, and eventually you'll end up with most of the weapons in the game with no effort, so you never really need to pay. (I've made a point of never buying weapons simply because I think trading is fun.) High-end items like hats are highly priced in trading, making them more attractive to buy, and the rarest ones are worth hundreds of dollars, but they are (with minor exceptions that are around for historical reasons) purely cosmetic.
Groxx 14y ago
Nitpick alert: Minecraft lets you "manually adjust the number of farmable resources in your inventory"? I wasn't aware cheating tools should be factored into this game ethic. Unless something has radically changed since I last played it? Honestly, I can only hope that this is accurate, and that the downward trends for slot machine games is real and will continue. It's ruining gaming and fun in general, and replacing it with causing - and then satisfying - an addiction. I remain unconvinced that it will actually happen, though. This current crop of Zyngaville gamers may be tiring of the shenanigans, but I expect it to merely be replaced with something equally draining that people aren't desensitized to, hooking the next generation. We're still addicted to the TV, last time I looked. If anything, games provide more opportunity than one-way media, I would expect them to strictly out-last TV in lifespan and damage.
- Kerrick 14y ago
  I think Minecraft's "Creative Mode," where you are given an unlimited number of otherwise-farmable resources to do with what you please, is what the article is talking about.
- mdonahoe 14y ago
  If you play on a server that you control, it is trivial to 'give' resources to anyone in the game. You type 'give <username> <item_id> <quantity>' and that resource will drop in front of the desired player. I find that this instant gratification quickly spoils survival mode. You can give yourself thousands of diamonds without the thrill and danger of mining them the real way. Inevitably I just give myself tons of TNT and blow up the world. Similarly, if you play chess against a stupid computer, it gets boring.
neutronicus 14y ago
I would really like to play a Role Playing Game without any kind of XP mechanic. I think it'd be really cool to play through an epic storyline that my character came through about as strong at the end as it was at the beginning.
- jcromartie 14y ago
  I've thought about this. Another way to do it would be to have stats that can vary, but keep them secret. Don't provide any concrete information to the player about what special ability a sword has, or that killing monsters all day made the player stronger, or running a long distance improved their endurance.
  - ajslater 14y ago
    One way is to have no character ability improvements, only player skill and player experience matters. Like say...tetris, q-bert, pacman or tekken. In this scenario, you skill and experience is always fully portable. I hope Subotai's CLANG is like this. Another is to limit the communication to human terms. Maybe you occlude all knowledge like jcromartie says, or maybe you realize that nobody ever feels like they have 18.6 strength. They feel weak, strong, or very strong. They feel nimble, graceful, clumsy, dumb, quick, lethargic, injured, smart, etc. Color gradients might be a non numerical way to give fuzzy information about ability. Your character is not a precision machine (unless maybe you're playing mechwarrior)
    - Joakal 14y ago
      www.puzzlepirates.com
      - hfsktr 14y ago
        I was wondering if anyone knew of that game. I wouldn't necessarily call it an RPG though (it seems as though lots of games are trying to blur that distinction though imo). Also the game (whichever puzzle) gets slightly more difficult as you get better (in some cases).
uvTwitch 14y ago
Zynga aren't really designing games, they're designing drugs.
- mikescar 14y ago
  But what's the difference really? Zynga games vs. non-Zynga games, slot machines vs. WoW, and games vs drugs? All of these things are designed to let you go somewhere else for a while. I partake in all of them, but also spend time volunteering and going outside. I don't get the author's argument about how much better he is than slot machine players because he spends his free time using more intricate games than they do. Not to mention he gets about half his assumptions wrong, as pointed out in this thread. As in, which casinos charge money for drinks to anyone who's playing a game?
  - tatsuke95 14y ago
    >"As in, which casinos charge money for drinks to anyone who's playing a game?" Every casino I've been to, ever.
    - recursive 14y ago
      I went to Vegas once. One night I hit a few casinos. I drank a fair amount, and didn't pay for one.
      - tatsuke95 14y ago
        I think Vegas is the exception, to be honest. And it's ruined my perception! Before I was old enough to visit the casinos, I assumed they all served free drinks. I've never experienced it (though 90% of my trips are within Canada).
  - damian2000 14y ago
    The difference is money, i.e. how much money they can get out of the gamer during the course of his 'addiction'.
  - 14y ago
rhinosix 14y ago
These "games" that exploit simple addictive behaviour have definitely run their course. I think the next big thing will be creative games and programs similar to Minecraft, From Dust, The Incredible Machine, Little Big Planet, HyperCard, and programs to assist in building 3D printable objects. We have all kinds of new software to build worlds, make models, music, movies. With Raspberry Pi, the computer is now just another component to be put into other machines. We have 3D printing, Arduinos, Sensordrone, submarine and quadcopter drones. Whole new areas for creative exploration that merge the virtual and physical worlds are opening up. There are all kinds of games you could create that work towards hardware design, world-building, music production, exploration, or controlling the devices in your home. Just make it simple for anyone to jump in and start experimenting and get feedback on their creations. There's also stuff like EyeWire - we can make games out of research in neuroscience. Or make a game out of tagging objects in data captured by underwater drones. Who wants to simply consume when you can create?
dsirijus 14y ago
I doubt that Zynga's decline has anything to do with their flawed mechanics (I'd argue that it's flawed too), and everything with Facebook effectively killing it (specifically, 'Requests') in feed. There's no feedback loop in there anymore for Zynga's cows.

64 points by rrbrambley 14y ago

"There may be no shortage of commentators ready to decry pay-to-win grindfests as 'evil' design, but what’s still needed is a code of ethical game mechanics that provides a yardstick to measure which games and which game designers can be trusted not to unduly manipulate their audience." Couldn't agree more. It's easier than ever to get games in the hands of eager/bored people via mobile and Facebook, and companies are thus capitalizing on these users by building shallow experiences while optimizing for revenues instead of fun. Additionally, I think more game devs need to speak out against the "evil" design. I hear a lot of tech-savvy people talking about this stuff verbally, but is the common person really aware of the amount of time that is spent trying to engineer them into being addicted? I realize that as developers, we don't necessarily benefit from spending a lot more time building something just to end up making less money, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere.

njharman 14y ago
> It's easier than ever to get games in the hands of eager/bored people via mobile and Facebook, and companies are thus capitalizing on these users by building shallow experiences while optimizing for revenues instead of fun. Change some of the nouns and that describes most capitalist consumerism. Entertainment, cloths, cars, starbucks et al, etc. (rest of it is based on fear/shame). The root cause is much, much deeper than Zynga or Facebook.
- hopefully 14y ago
  "Creating a need" is certainly an often employed strategy. I love technology. I'm not very good, I'm not very clever or a great coder, but I'm still more geeky than non-geeks. Now, There are plenty of people who are not deeply fascinated with it, but use technology to make their lives easier. Why can't we just built good things for them, and everybody can go home knowing they haven't been ripping off or been ripped off -- ?? This focus on profit and fads, it's doing my head in. When I was a kid I was ashamed because computers weren't cool, now I'm ashamed because they are, and because of what is done with them without blinking. They're just tools, but he haven't improved much, so we just use them to do BS faster. Come on, there has to be more. /rant
jcromartie 14y ago
There are game designers that speak against it strongly, but even gamers put them down as "elitist" or "snobs", because the designers are pretty extreme in their views.
- rrbrambley 14y ago
  Yeah, well this a problem. It shouldn't be considered extreme to have this point of view.
hopefully 14y ago
That yardstick actually has been posted on HN not long ago :) http://fadeyev.net/2012/06/19/moral-design/ http://fadeyev.net/2012/06/19/moral-design/
- rrbrambley 14y ago
  This is a great read. Thank you for posting this link!

_delirium 14y ago

Wow, Zynga seems to be proving a Poe's Law for videogame design. Cow Clicker seemed like funny satire, but it can no longer compete with this apparently earnest game design, which is literally a slot machine game, except that after inserting your "Bucket of Coins, $19.99", you don't even have a remote chance of getting it back.

comex 14y ago

The article inaccurately represents TF2: you can buy weapons for a few dollars (not 10), but random drops are common enough that even a new player can fairly easily trade them for any weapon he wants, and eventually you'll end up with most of the weapons in the game with no effort, so you never really need to pay. (I've made a point of never buying weapons simply because I think trading is fun.) High-end items like hats are highly priced in trading, making them more attractive to buy, and the rarest ones are worth hundreds of dollars, but they are (with minor exceptions that are around for historical reasons) purely cosmetic.

Groxx 14y ago

Nitpick alert: Minecraft lets you "manually adjust the number of farmable resources in your inventory"? I wasn't aware cheating tools should be factored into this game ethic. Unless something has radically changed since I last played it? Honestly, I can only hope that this is accurate, and that the downward trends for slot machine games is real and will continue. It's ruining gaming and fun in general, and replacing it with causing - and then satisfying - an addiction. I remain unconvinced that it will actually happen, though. This current crop of Zyngaville gamers may be tiring of the shenanigans, but I expect it to merely be replaced with something equally draining that people aren't desensitized to, hooking the next generation. We're still addicted to the TV, last time I looked. If anything, games provide more opportunity than one-way media, I would expect them to strictly out-last TV in lifespan and damage.

Kerrick 14y ago
I think Minecraft's "Creative Mode," where you are given an unlimited number of otherwise-farmable resources to do with what you please, is what the article is talking about.
mdonahoe 14y ago
If you play on a server that you control, it is trivial to 'give' resources to anyone in the game. You type 'give <username> <item_id> <quantity>' and that resource will drop in front of the desired player. I find that this instant gratification quickly spoils survival mode. You can give yourself thousands of diamonds without the thrill and danger of mining them the real way. Inevitably I just give myself tons of TNT and blow up the world. Similarly, if you play chess against a stupid computer, it gets boring.

neutronicus 14y ago

I would really like to play a Role Playing Game without any kind of XP mechanic. I think it'd be really cool to play through an epic storyline that my character came through about as strong at the end as it was at the beginning.

jcromartie 14y ago
I've thought about this. Another way to do it would be to have stats that can vary, but keep them secret. Don't provide any concrete information to the player about what special ability a sword has, or that killing monsters all day made the player stronger, or running a long distance improved their endurance.
- ajslater 14y ago
  One way is to have no character ability improvements, only player skill and player experience matters. Like say...tetris, q-bert, pacman or tekken. In this scenario, you skill and experience is always fully portable. I hope Subotai's CLANG is like this. Another is to limit the communication to human terms. Maybe you occlude all knowledge like jcromartie says, or maybe you realize that nobody ever feels like they have 18.6 strength. They feel weak, strong, or very strong. They feel nimble, graceful, clumsy, dumb, quick, lethargic, injured, smart, etc. Color gradients might be a non numerical way to give fuzzy information about ability. Your character is not a precision machine (unless maybe you're playing mechwarrior)
  - Joakal 14y ago
    www.puzzlepirates.com
    - hfsktr 14y ago
      I was wondering if anyone knew of that game. I wouldn't necessarily call it an RPG though (it seems as though lots of games are trying to blur that distinction though imo). Also the game (whichever puzzle) gets slightly more difficult as you get better (in some cases).

uvTwitch 14y ago

Zynga aren't really designing games, they're designing drugs.

mikescar 14y ago
But what's the difference really? Zynga games vs. non-Zynga games, slot machines vs. WoW, and games vs drugs? All of these things are designed to let you go somewhere else for a while. I partake in all of them, but also spend time volunteering and going outside. I don't get the author's argument about how much better he is than slot machine players because he spends his free time using more intricate games than they do. Not to mention he gets about half his assumptions wrong, as pointed out in this thread. As in, which casinos charge money for drinks to anyone who's playing a game?
- tatsuke95 14y ago
  >"As in, which casinos charge money for drinks to anyone who's playing a game?" Every casino I've been to, ever.
  - recursive 14y ago
    I went to Vegas once. One night I hit a few casinos. I drank a fair amount, and didn't pay for one.
    - tatsuke95 14y ago
      I think Vegas is the exception, to be honest. And it's ruined my perception! Before I was old enough to visit the casinos, I assumed they all served free drinks. I've never experienced it (though 90% of my trips are within Canada).
- damian2000 14y ago
  The difference is money, i.e. how much money they can get out of the gamer during the course of his 'addiction'.
- 14y ago

rhinosix 14y ago

These "games" that exploit simple addictive behaviour have definitely run their course. I think the next big thing will be creative games and programs similar to Minecraft, From Dust, The Incredible Machine, Little Big Planet, HyperCard, and programs to assist in building 3D printable objects. We have all kinds of new software to build worlds, make models, music, movies. With Raspberry Pi, the computer is now just another component to be put into other machines. We have 3D printing, Arduinos, Sensordrone, submarine and quadcopter drones. Whole new areas for creative exploration that merge the virtual and physical worlds are opening up. There are all kinds of games you could create that work towards hardware design, world-building, music production, exploration, or controlling the devices in your home. Just make it simple for anyone to jump in and start experimenting and get feedback on their creations. There's also stuff like EyeWire - we can make games out of research in neuroscience. Or make a game out of tagging objects in data captured by underwater drones. Who wants to simply consume when you can create?

dsirijus 14y ago

I doubt that Zynga's decline has anything to do with their flawed mechanics (I'd argue that it's flawed too), and everything with Facebook effectively killing it (specifically, 'Requests') in feed. There's no feedback loop in there anymore for Zynga's cows.