2 ms·

We don't need a mind reading machine to understand what gender dysphoria is, because gender dysphoric people tell us what they are thinking and feeling It's no

We don't need a mind reading machine to understand what gender dysphoria is, because gender dysphoric people tell us what they are thinking and feeling It's not this simple. For one, lots of people are all kinds of confused. There are people who think they are dysphoric, transition, then realize they totally messed up. There are people who say, "I went through a period when I was a kid where I was a tom-boy or told my parents I was the other sex -- thank goodness this kind of ideology wasn't around then because I could have been trannsed. I'm perfectly happy in my biological sex right now." If you read a lot of stories they aren't necessarily "dysphoric" they just think it will benefit them someway to transition, in the same way a weightlifter who goes on steroids is not "dysphoric" about his body, he just might think he is happier to be muscled up. And we also have people who later admit that they lied about the nature gender identity in order to get sex change drugs and trans people who admit there is substantial political pressure to make their personal testimonials about gender identity conform to a certain script: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trans-rights-biological-sex-gender-judith-butler.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/trans-rights-biologi... https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-30/essays/on-liking-women/ https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-30/essays/on-liking-women/ Because we do not actually have the technology to turn a man into a female (or vice versa), I think the most honest and best course is to tell that person, "Sorry, you are not a woman, and the surgery you are asking for will not actually get you want you want. Cross-dressing and wearing lipstick does not make you a woman. But if you learn to accept who you are, you can live a happy life." To be convinced that this common sense approach is not the best approach, I would need very strong evidence -- at minimum multiple randomized controlled trials by honest researchers.

brandon272 2y ago
> There are people who think they are dysphoric, transition, then realize they totally messed up. Some people start businesses, it doesn't go well, they then realized they messed up and totally regret it. Does this mean that all entrepreneurship should be banned? The logical failure in your argument is that you are saying that because there are problems with current approaches to transgender care, that gender dysphoria is not real and does not need to be taken seriously or treated or accommodated. > I think the most honest and best course is to tell that person, "Sorry, you are not a woman, and the surgery you are asking for will not actually get you want you want. Cross-dressing and wearing lipstick does not make you a woman. But if you learn to accept who you are, you can live a happy life." There is zero evidence that your "common sense approach" works at all, and there is zero evidence that reparative or conversion therapy works at all for those with legitimate gender dysphoria.
- chlodwig 2y ago
  There is zero evidence that your "common sense approach" works at all, and there is zero evidence that reparative or conversion therapy works at all for those with legitimate gender dysphoria. Clinical psychologists Kenneth Zucker's work in getting the majority of his patients over their dysphoria is "evidence" that reparative therapy works -- https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-r... Every random comment on Reddit that "I suffered from dysphoria and then started lifting and doing masculine things and got completely over it" is evidence that reparative therapy works. It's not gold standard evidence, it's not proof-beyond-a-reasonable doubt, but it is evidence. But the "evidence" for "affirmation" and "medical transition" do not meet this gold standard either. With medicine, the burden of proof is on the person doing the intervention. "First do no harm." Social transition and medical transition are both MAJOR interventions, the burden of proof is on the proponents. "You have to give people this drug, no we have never done a controlled clinical trial on it, but you have no evidence that NOT giving them the treatment works." What? You need to do a RCT before promoting a new treatment as the standard of care. "Affirmation" has never proved itself in an RCT so "Sorry, you are a man" should be the default.
  - brandon272 2y ago
    > Clinical psychologists Kenneth Zucker's work in getting the majority of his patients over their dysphoria is "evidence" that reparative therapy works You are conflating social trends among young people to identify as gender non-confirming for social clout, with adults who have intractable gender dysphoria. It is disingenuous to point to children who were likely not genuinely gender dysphoric to begin with, claim that they were 'cured' and conclude that this solution is then viable for all people with gender dysphoria. There is an incredible amount of nuance to the situation that you are simply ignoring. One of two things is true: 1) You genuinely do not understand the 'separation of concerns' when it comes to these issues surround gender, biological sex and gender dysphoria, current social trends, and sensational political headlines. 2) You are being intentionally misleading. I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith and that #1 is true. In that case, I recommend you take a step back and try to recalibrate your understanding of the issue. I don't know the best way to accomplish that - maybe do some research and read some stories of transgender people published prior to 2015 before it became the political fight du jour. >Every random comment on Reddit that "I suffered from dysphoria and then started lifting and doing masculine things and got completely over it" is evidence that reparative therapy works. You've gone from demanding randomized controlled trials to referring to random comments from anonymous users on Reddit about how lifting weights cures gender dysphoria? I think it's safe to say that the conversation has gone off the rails, although maybe that happened a few replies ago.

brandon272 2y ago

> There are people who think they are dysphoric, transition, then realize they totally messed up. Some people start businesses, it doesn't go well, they then realized they messed up and totally regret it. Does this mean that all entrepreneurship should be banned? The logical failure in your argument is that you are saying that because there are problems with current approaches to transgender care, that gender dysphoria is not real and does not need to be taken seriously or treated or accommodated. > I think the most honest and best course is to tell that person, "Sorry, you are not a woman, and the surgery you are asking for will not actually get you want you want. Cross-dressing and wearing lipstick does not make you a woman. But if you learn to accept who you are, you can live a happy life." There is zero evidence that your "common sense approach" works at all, and there is zero evidence that reparative or conversion therapy works at all for those with legitimate gender dysphoria.

chlodwig 2y ago
There is zero evidence that your "common sense approach" works at all, and there is zero evidence that reparative or conversion therapy works at all for those with legitimate gender dysphoria. Clinical psychologists Kenneth Zucker's work in getting the majority of his patients over their dysphoria is "evidence" that reparative therapy works -- https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-researcher-fired.html https://www.thecut.com/2016/02/fight-over-trans-kids-got-a-r... Every random comment on Reddit that "I suffered from dysphoria and then started lifting and doing masculine things and got completely over it" is evidence that reparative therapy works. It's not gold standard evidence, it's not proof-beyond-a-reasonable doubt, but it is evidence. But the "evidence" for "affirmation" and "medical transition" do not meet this gold standard either. With medicine, the burden of proof is on the person doing the intervention. "First do no harm." Social transition and medical transition are both MAJOR interventions, the burden of proof is on the proponents. "You have to give people this drug, no we have never done a controlled clinical trial on it, but you have no evidence that NOT giving them the treatment works." What? You need to do a RCT before promoting a new treatment as the standard of care. "Affirmation" has never proved itself in an RCT so "Sorry, you are a man" should be the default.
- brandon272 2y ago
  > Clinical psychologists Kenneth Zucker's work in getting the majority of his patients over their dysphoria is "evidence" that reparative therapy works You are conflating social trends among young people to identify as gender non-confirming for social clout, with adults who have intractable gender dysphoria. It is disingenuous to point to children who were likely not genuinely gender dysphoric to begin with, claim that they were 'cured' and conclude that this solution is then viable for all people with gender dysphoria. There is an incredible amount of nuance to the situation that you are simply ignoring. One of two things is true: 1) You genuinely do not understand the 'separation of concerns' when it comes to these issues surround gender, biological sex and gender dysphoria, current social trends, and sensational political headlines. 2) You are being intentionally misleading. I'm going to assume you are arguing in good faith and that #1 is true. In that case, I recommend you take a step back and try to recalibrate your understanding of the issue. I don't know the best way to accomplish that - maybe do some research and read some stories of transgender people published prior to 2015 before it became the political fight du jour. >Every random comment on Reddit that "I suffered from dysphoria and then started lifting and doing masculine things and got completely over it" is evidence that reparative therapy works. You've gone from demanding randomized controlled trials to referring to random comments from anonymous users on Reddit about how lifting weights cures gender dysphoria? I think it's safe to say that the conversation has gone off the rails, although maybe that happened a few replies ago.