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I won't address the cost, but an important point to remember is for many countries energy security is national security, food security is national security. It

by BMc2020 2y ago

I won't address the cost, but an important point to remember is for many countries energy security is national security, food security is national security. It is important for them that they can't be held hostage to fossil fuel supplies. It's been a big issue for western european countries during the ukraine war.

rs999gti 2y ago
> It's been a big issue for western european countries during the ukraine war. In 2018, Germany (and France) were warned about their dependence and deals with Russia on oil and gas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0
- vfclists 2y ago
  Russia did not opt to stop supplying them with gas. They cut themselves off at America's prompting. The Germans couldn't be bothered to find out what parties were truly responsible for the blowing up of the NordStream pipelines, pipelines that the companies involved in were sanctioned by the US.
  - blackmoon42 2y ago
    In fact, it did. Russia told, there was a broken turbine involved, but even after repairs didn't take it back. Later it said, the unfriendly behaviour (sanctions, because of the Ukraine invasion) was the cause of stopping gas delivery.
nostrademons 2y ago
A number of headlines have come out recently touting China's progress on electrification, and predicting that they will soon (if they don't already) dominate the solar/battery/EV markets. The part often glossed over is that while the U.S. and Russia both have large oil reserves and domestic production capabilities, China has virtually nothing in comparison. Their production is about 1/4 that of the U.S. despite having 4x the population, meaning that per capita, they have < 1/16th the oil available. Electrification is a matter of national security for them, because any major global geopolitical conflict (say, the escalation of the Russia/Ukraine war, or a Russia/US conflict, or more turmoil in the Middle East) will cut off the flow of oil imports and grind China's already-weakened economy to a halt. Follow the incentives and you can predict the outcomes.
- RationPhantoms 2y ago
  China has the 2nd largest coal reserve globally. They also produce 61% of their electricity from Coal-fired power plants. Say what you will about contributing to increasing global greenhouse gas emissions but their energy security is not as dire as you paint it. They're still diversifying it though through hydro/nuclear/wind/solar sources.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    Only 20% of China's energy consumption is in the form of electricity. The rest is transport, heating and cooking. They do use some coal for heating & cooking but it's fairly negligible. Therefore coal only supplies about 13% of energy.
  - nostrademons 2y ago
    Losing gasoline would absolutely suck for them, though. They have a commuter economy like all the other developed economies; if people can't go to work, the economy ceases to function. Hence the strong push toward EVs. China has abundant coal, abundant hydro, lots of solar potential (although I think their installed base is just getting started), and decent wind. It makes a lot of sense for them to electrify their economy so that they can transform those coal and hydro resources to something you can drive around.
    - badpun 2y ago
      You can make gasoline out of coal. That was in fact Hitler's backup plan for WWII, in case he failed to secure the oil fields he needed.
- junto 2y ago
  > The part often glossed over is that while the U.S. and Russia both have large oil reserves and domestic production capabilities, China has virtually nothing in comparison. China is 13th of the list with an estimated 25.1 billion barrels of untapped oil reserves. The U.S. is 9th in the list with 55 billion barrels. Venezuela tops the list with and estimated 303 billion barrels. China also has a long term strategic policy on resource management. Long term strategic planning is deep within Chinese cultural psyche. Wondering around certain regions of China you’ll see many capped wells, and when you ask a Chinese official about them, one may be lucky to get the real answer as to why they are capped and not being used. The answer given was “why use ours now? We use everyone else’s until it’s all gone, and then we use ours”. China is playing the long game. It’s a slow patient 2000 year old culture that had an odd blip 100 years ago and is now moving back to business as usual. Underestimate China at your peril. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_...
Yeul 2y ago
Yeah that's what Trump doesn't get when he gets angry about wind power. The Netherlands is a rich country it doesn't need handouts from American oil companies pumping up a few million barrels of oil. What it needs is electricity for the next 100 years and that's why the Dutch part of the North Sea is being paved over with turbines.
SALCKIN 2y ago
Reply
archsurface 2y ago
Or held hostage to the weather.

rs999gti 2y ago

> It's been a big issue for western european countries during the ukraine war. In 2018, Germany (and France) were warned about their dependence and deals with Russia on oil and gas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0

vfclists 2y ago
Russia did not opt to stop supplying them with gas. They cut themselves off at America's prompting. The Germans couldn't be bothered to find out what parties were truly responsible for the blowing up of the NordStream pipelines, pipelines that the companies involved in were sanctioned by the US.
- blackmoon42 2y ago
  In fact, it did. Russia told, there was a broken turbine involved, but even after repairs didn't take it back. Later it said, the unfriendly behaviour (sanctions, because of the Ukraine invasion) was the cause of stopping gas delivery.

nostrademons 2y ago

A number of headlines have come out recently touting China's progress on electrification, and predicting that they will soon (if they don't already) dominate the solar/battery/EV markets. The part often glossed over is that while the U.S. and Russia both have large oil reserves and domestic production capabilities, China has virtually nothing in comparison. Their production is about 1/4 that of the U.S. despite having 4x the population, meaning that per capita, they have < 1/16th the oil available. Electrification is a matter of national security for them, because any major global geopolitical conflict (say, the escalation of the Russia/Ukraine war, or a Russia/US conflict, or more turmoil in the Middle East) will cut off the flow of oil imports and grind China's already-weakened economy to a halt. Follow the incentives and you can predict the outcomes.

RationPhantoms 2y ago
China has the 2nd largest coal reserve globally. They also produce 61% of their electricity from Coal-fired power plants. Say what you will about contributing to increasing global greenhouse gas emissions but their energy security is not as dire as you paint it. They're still diversifying it though through hydro/nuclear/wind/solar sources.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Only 20% of China's energy consumption is in the form of electricity. The rest is transport, heating and cooking. They do use some coal for heating & cooking but it's fairly negligible. Therefore coal only supplies about 13% of energy.
- nostrademons 2y ago
  Losing gasoline would absolutely suck for them, though. They have a commuter economy like all the other developed economies; if people can't go to work, the economy ceases to function. Hence the strong push toward EVs. China has abundant coal, abundant hydro, lots of solar potential (although I think their installed base is just getting started), and decent wind. It makes a lot of sense for them to electrify their economy so that they can transform those coal and hydro resources to something you can drive around.
  - badpun 2y ago
    You can make gasoline out of coal. That was in fact Hitler's backup plan for WWII, in case he failed to secure the oil fields he needed.
junto 2y ago
> The part often glossed over is that while the U.S. and Russia both have large oil reserves and domestic production capabilities, China has virtually nothing in comparison. China is 13th of the list with an estimated 25.1 billion barrels of untapped oil reserves. The U.S. is 9th in the list with 55 billion barrels. Venezuela tops the list with and estimated 303 billion barrels. China also has a long term strategic policy on resource management. Long term strategic planning is deep within Chinese cultural psyche. Wondering around certain regions of China you’ll see many capped wells, and when you ask a Chinese official about them, one may be lucky to get the real answer as to why they are capped and not being used. The answer given was “why use ours now? We use everyone else’s until it’s all gone, and then we use ours”. China is playing the long game. It’s a slow patient 2000 year old culture that had an odd blip 100 years ago and is now moving back to business as usual. Underestimate China at your peril. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_...

Yeul 2y ago

Yeah that's what Trump doesn't get when he gets angry about wind power. The Netherlands is a rich country it doesn't need handouts from American oil companies pumping up a few million barrels of oil. What it needs is electricity for the next 100 years and that's why the Dutch part of the North Sea is being paved over with turbines.

SALCKIN 2y ago

archsurface 2y ago

Or held hostage to the weather.