4 ms·

For even longer time we have a REAL proof (not mathematical wordplay) that whenever, without exception, someone takes a swing at free markets it leads to people

For even longer time we have a REAL proof (not mathematical wordplay) that whenever, without exception, someone takes a swing at free markets it leads to people dying. IT has always been a disaster and people always have been exiting those societies where that happens towards more free societies. You yourself have plenty of options to go somewhere with less free market - Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, Russia, even China. Have YOU emigrated to such a country?

lern_too_spel 2y ago
You also have the option to go somewhere with even more of a free market, like Somalia. Have you emigrated to such a country? It turns out that societies can write laws for mutual benefit.
- _uxvx 2y ago
  If you believe that free market means no laws you have not enough knowledge to participate in this conversation. Somalia is not a free market, it is a lack of state where you are not free at all, but the opposite. It is not that different though than what happens in socialist countries. Venezuela used to be very rich and advanced and now it has more or less the same situation as in Somalia.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    Somalia has a free market in security, water infrastructure, transportation infrastructure, communication infrastructure, power infrastructure, schooling, healthcare, etc. instead of allowing a state to interfere in all of these things. That is the definition of a free market. There is also no border security for free movement of goods and people. You are free to move there and enjoy all of its advantages.
cs702 2y ago
Oh, I'm a capitalist. I believe Churchill was right when he said that capitalism is the worst economic system ever invented, except for all the others that have been tried before. I never said we should do away with a market economy. All I said is that market economies are not guaranteed to converge to optimal or even good outcomes. Markets CAN lead to horrifically bad equilibria (extreme inequality, financial crises, recessions, depressions, etc.). There are no guarantees that they won't. So let's be humble, open-minded, willing to rely on markets when they work, willing to try other things when they don't. Please don't attack a straw-man.
semi-extrinsic 2y ago
> whenever, without exception, someone takes a swing at free markets it leads to people dying Do Scandinavian socialist democracies not count as an exception? On the flip side, I think you will equally find that whenever free market solutions are applied to public services - healthcare, water, electricity, police, etc - people also die in large numbers. And although wealthy people generated by the free markets are philantropic, it's not in proportion to the harm inflicted on people. Only thing is, we ignore those disasters because they are inconvenient for the narrative. It seems to be obvious that certain things (like public utilities) should just be controlled directly by the government, without any free markets involved, as long as your objective function is to optimize the average life quality of your citizens.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  Can you give some examples on actual free market solutions are applied to public services? The closest I can think of are the metros of Tokyo free government takeover, but I am not sure how free those actually were of government regulation. One of the struggles I have is that typically these public services may be carried out by private companies paid for by the government, but that is just begging for corruption

lern_too_spel 2y ago

You also have the option to go somewhere with even more of a free market, like Somalia. Have you emigrated to such a country? It turns out that societies can write laws for mutual benefit.

_uxvx 2y ago
If you believe that free market means no laws you have not enough knowledge to participate in this conversation. Somalia is not a free market, it is a lack of state where you are not free at all, but the opposite. It is not that different though than what happens in socialist countries. Venezuela used to be very rich and advanced and now it has more or less the same situation as in Somalia.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  Somalia has a free market in security, water infrastructure, transportation infrastructure, communication infrastructure, power infrastructure, schooling, healthcare, etc. instead of allowing a state to interfere in all of these things. That is the definition of a free market. There is also no border security for free movement of goods and people. You are free to move there and enjoy all of its advantages.

cs702 2y ago

Oh, I'm a capitalist. I believe Churchill was right when he said that capitalism is the worst economic system ever invented, except for all the others that have been tried before. I never said we should do away with a market economy. All I said is that market economies are not guaranteed to converge to optimal or even good outcomes. Markets CAN lead to horrifically bad equilibria (extreme inequality, financial crises, recessions, depressions, etc.). There are no guarantees that they won't. So let's be humble, open-minded, willing to rely on markets when they work, willing to try other things when they don't. Please don't attack a straw-man.

semi-extrinsic 2y ago

> whenever, without exception, someone takes a swing at free markets it leads to people dying Do Scandinavian socialist democracies not count as an exception? On the flip side, I think you will equally find that whenever free market solutions are applied to public services - healthcare, water, electricity, police, etc - people also die in large numbers. And although wealthy people generated by the free markets are philantropic, it's not in proportion to the harm inflicted on people. Only thing is, we ignore those disasters because they are inconvenient for the narrative. It seems to be obvious that certain things (like public utilities) should just be controlled directly by the government, without any free markets involved, as long as your objective function is to optimize the average life quality of your citizens.

readthenotes1 2y ago
Can you give some examples on actual free market solutions are applied to public services? The closest I can think of are the metros of Tokyo free government takeover, but I am not sure how free those actually were of government regulation. One of the struggles I have is that typically these public services may be carried out by private companies paid for by the government, but that is just begging for corruption