5 ms·

Not just one thread. ANTEC '97 Conference Proceedings, CRC Press, pages 1310-1313. https://www.google.com/books/edition/SPE_ANTEC_1997_Proceedings/uuBHUl4UNek

Not just one thread. ANTEC '97 Conference Proceedings, CRC Press, pages 1310-1313. https://www.google.com/books/edition/SPE_ANTEC_1997_Proceedings/uuBHUl4UNekC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA1310 https://www.google.com/books/edition/SPE_ANTEC_1997_Proceedi... The thread is based on a conference talk and journal publication that preceded it. The reason this particular case hasn't been reproduced is just because it has no practical application, requires a lot of equipment, requires the equipment to be intentionally improperly operated risking damage or injury, and it's extremely expensive to test. Nobody is going to willingly tool up an environment capable of running a mile of 20 foot wide PP film at a thousand feet per minute, then purposely ungrounding the equipment, and run it at 100+ F and 95+ % humidity for hours, days, or weeks. Just setting it up would cost millions of dollars and running it may cost millions more.

swayvil 2y ago
We could design the experiment. Then try to reduce the experiment to a cheap, convenient form. Surely somebody has done at least that.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
sunshinesnacks 2y ago
According to https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_index https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_index, 100 deg F with 95% RH is a heat index of 185 F. The linked paper says "temperature often approached 100 F with relative humidity above 95%," and later references specific conditions of 92 F and 95% RH (137 F heat index). Are these sorts of heat index values feasible for a plant environment? The line about 100/95 seems almost hyperbolic, which doesn't help with credibility in my opinion. Maybe I'm missing something.
- dylan604 2y ago
  > 100 deg F with 95% RH is a heat index of 185 F. So just a typical summer day in Texas
- CuriousCosmic 2y ago
  That's basically normal for unconditioned factory spaces in the US south during the summer. Ungodly hot, ungodly humid, and generally just shit to exist inside. This is in large part why historically industrialized factories tended to be concentrated in colder, higher latitude regions until the 20th century. Without refrigeration the work was far harder and more exhausting for the workers and that limited efficient use of labor.
  - sans_souse 2y ago
    Tell me about it. I worked for 3M owned Saint Gobain running kevlar and fiberglass sheets thru 5-story oven feeds. it was often 105°F on the floor, but if you were unlucky enough to lose your line you'd be hiking up 5 stories of oven stacks where temps would be soaring. Not to mention every Friday PM shift would start with running junk lines super hot to "clean" (burn-off) all the accumulated Teflon in the oven walls and exhausts (which did not work efficiently enough) from the prior week. So, at 3PM you would start your shift already drenched in sweat watching as a Teflon smoke plume formed at the ceiling of the 7-story plant, like a dark storm cloud, and slowly make its way down to the floor. By 10PM we would all be coughing and exhausted, scratchy throats, etc. A lady on 3rd shift who ran my machine had a near death incident and the company swept that under the rug along with plenty of other seriously concerning practices. AMA!
    - sunshinesnacks 2y ago
      I don't doubt those temperatures at all. But do you know what the relative humidity was? It's the combo that causes problems fast. 100 F and 60% RH is miserable and dangerous, but that's a wet bulb of about 90 F, so there's some marginal potential for your body to cool itself. 100 F and 95% RH is a WB of 98.6 F. Any heat generated in your body has no where to go.
      - onlypassingthru 2y ago
        A funny thing happens to those who live or train in extreme environments, their body adapts over time. You or I might pass out if we were suddenly exposed to that sort of factory environment, but an experienced worker might handle limited exposure just fine. The human body is amazingly adaptable.
- pixl97 2y ago
  There are a lot of places in plants that can end up being deadly for any extended amount of times in particular weather conditions. There was a grain processing plant up in the midwest were my dad worked that had an area enclosed in between building they'd close off access to on the hottest summer days. Light would be excessively focused in that area from other buildings, and moisture from other processes and lack of air circulation lead to deadly wet bulb temperatures.
Workaccount2 2y ago
There are much easier and cheaper ways of generating megavolts of electricity, I think the biggest barrier would be getting someone who knows enough about this to build it despite their skepticism about the validity of it.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  That is what grants are for. And DARPA when something more specific, like this, is to be investigated.
  - giantg2 2y ago
    "And DARPA" That was my first thought - the military would be all over this if there's even a remote chance you could build energy shields or something.
- CuriousCosmic 2y ago
  Sure but for creating fairly uniform/gradual fields of static electricity over a large space? Electrostatic precipitators exist but they aren't large. Everything else I'm aware of that works on larger scales fails to satisfy the uniform/gradual aspect.
- J0nL 2y ago
  I remember hearing about this in the mid 2000s, someone at Brookhaven (US DOE/Army) jumped on filing a patent for it and dubbed it a plasma window. They found a use for it in particle accelerators to partition off sections that are under vacuum
dist-epoch 2y ago
> The reason this particular case hasn't been reproduced is just because it has no practical application It can be a tourist attraction you sell tickets to.
- dotancohen 2y ago
  In the fine article it is mentioned that the plant manager debated whether to fix it or sell tickets.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Can it? Or are their safety aspects that make it dangerous in enough situations that you shouldn't let the public there. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mostly safe but once in a while there was a deadly spark. For sure I wouldn't let someone with a pacemaker or similar device near this. I also wouldn't allow phones, wallets, key - anything with electronics - near.
Aurornis 2y ago
> Just setting it up would cost millions of dollars and running it may cost millions more. You're a couple orders of magnitude too high. Polypropylene film isn't that expensive. A thousand feet per minute is only 10 miles per hour, which is not that fast at all. Humidity and heat aren't hard to generate in a closed space. This is the kind of thing that's within the budget of some ambitious YouTubers, not millions of dollars. It's a fun urban legend. The red flag for anyone who has studied anything related to electromagnetism is the way it's described as a wall, not a force that gradually grows stronger as you get closer. Forces don't work at distance like that. You also have to suspend disbelief and imagine this force field didn't impact the equipment itself. We're supposed to believe that a grown man can't push up against the field at a distance away from the source, but the plastic film and machinery inside of the field are continuing to operate as usual? It's a fun urban legend. Leave it be, but don't take it seriously.
- CuriousCosmic 2y ago
  > it's described as a wall, not a force that gradually grows stronger as you get closer. Forces don't work at distance like that. It's described as a wall because it's not just running a straight line. The PP line creates an archway where the "wall" is located. That's where the field is most intense. It's noticeable elsewhere but that's the point where as indicated in the paper they can no longer push through it. > You also have to suspend disbelief and imagine this force field didn't impact the equipment itself. We're supposed to believe that a grown man can't push up against the field at a distance away from the source, but the plastic film and machinery inside of the field are continuing to operate as usual? This is also addressed in the paper. The lines can run 50-100% faster than it normally does but the faster they run it the more problematic the interference is. So during normal operation they limited it to 750-1000fpm.
- joemi 2y ago
  The article mentions "50K ft. rolls 20ft wide". While you might not need the full 50K ft length (if you can even buy such a roll with less length), the 20 ft wide spec is probably fairly important. I wonder how much that'd cost, including transportation? Also, I have no idea how much it'd cost to buy or make machinery and supports to sufficiently handle such a sized roll. What are you estimating these costs would be?
hinkley 2y ago
I miss MythBusters.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  I don't. It was shitty experiments presented to the clueless public as an example of how science works. The experiments usually did a terrible job of actually testing things, were so badly designed they malfunctioned more than anything else, and half the time they'd get results that were at best inconclusive or seems one way and they'd just declare it to be the other. I think those two clowns did more to harm scientific literacy than almost anyone else except maybe the Texas Board of Education. Not to mention, Adam is pretty well known for being a tool.
  - Daneel_ 2y ago
    That's certainly not the take away I have from the show. It inspired many to think for themselves and made science approachable and fun. They made a genuine effort to be scientific within the bounds of the show. I think they've done a great service to the field, personally. Can you cite any sources for Adam being a 'tool'? He seems like a high-energy kind of guy, but this is the first I've heard of him being disliked by crew. Usually I've heard the opposite; that he gets on well with other crew members.
Animats 2y ago
Ah. Nice to have a solid reference. It's not an unusual problem. Anything which moves thin sheets of insulating material at high speed can cause this. And so, there are standard devices for dealing with it. The simplest is copper tinsel. That's even available at WalMart.[1] There are fancier systems. [2] The static eliminator doesn't have to touch the product. Close is good enough. Maybe 1 inch for tinsel, much greater for the active devices. [1] https://www.walmart.com/search?q=anti-static+tinsel https://www.walmart.com/search?q=anti-static+tinsel [2] https://www.takk.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2023-TAKK-catalog.pdf https://www.takk.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2023-TAKK-ca...
actionfromafar 2y ago
https://web.archive.org/web/20160308070438/http://centxesdassoc.homestead.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160308070438/http://centxesdas...

swayvil 2y ago

We could design the experiment. Then try to reduce the experiment to a cheap, convenient form. Surely somebody has done at least that.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

sunshinesnacks 2y ago

According to https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_index https://www.weather.gov/arx/heat_index, 100 deg F with 95% RH is a heat index of 185 F. The linked paper says "temperature often approached 100 F with relative humidity above 95%," and later references specific conditions of 92 F and 95% RH (137 F heat index). Are these sorts of heat index values feasible for a plant environment? The line about 100/95 seems almost hyperbolic, which doesn't help with credibility in my opinion. Maybe I'm missing something.

dylan604 2y ago
> 100 deg F with 95% RH is a heat index of 185 F. So just a typical summer day in Texas
CuriousCosmic 2y ago
That's basically normal for unconditioned factory spaces in the US south during the summer. Ungodly hot, ungodly humid, and generally just shit to exist inside. This is in large part why historically industrialized factories tended to be concentrated in colder, higher latitude regions until the 20th century. Without refrigeration the work was far harder and more exhausting for the workers and that limited efficient use of labor.
- sans_souse 2y ago
  Tell me about it. I worked for 3M owned Saint Gobain running kevlar and fiberglass sheets thru 5-story oven feeds. it was often 105°F on the floor, but if you were unlucky enough to lose your line you'd be hiking up 5 stories of oven stacks where temps would be soaring. Not to mention every Friday PM shift would start with running junk lines super hot to "clean" (burn-off) all the accumulated Teflon in the oven walls and exhausts (which did not work efficiently enough) from the prior week. So, at 3PM you would start your shift already drenched in sweat watching as a Teflon smoke plume formed at the ceiling of the 7-story plant, like a dark storm cloud, and slowly make its way down to the floor. By 10PM we would all be coughing and exhausted, scratchy throats, etc. A lady on 3rd shift who ran my machine had a near death incident and the company swept that under the rug along with plenty of other seriously concerning practices. AMA!
  - sunshinesnacks 2y ago
    I don't doubt those temperatures at all. But do you know what the relative humidity was? It's the combo that causes problems fast. 100 F and 60% RH is miserable and dangerous, but that's a wet bulb of about 90 F, so there's some marginal potential for your body to cool itself. 100 F and 95% RH is a WB of 98.6 F. Any heat generated in your body has no where to go.
    - onlypassingthru 2y ago
      A funny thing happens to those who live or train in extreme environments, their body adapts over time. You or I might pass out if we were suddenly exposed to that sort of factory environment, but an experienced worker might handle limited exposure just fine. The human body is amazingly adaptable.
pixl97 2y ago
There are a lot of places in plants that can end up being deadly for any extended amount of times in particular weather conditions. There was a grain processing plant up in the midwest were my dad worked that had an area enclosed in between building they'd close off access to on the hottest summer days. Light would be excessively focused in that area from other buildings, and moisture from other processes and lack of air circulation lead to deadly wet bulb temperatures.

Workaccount2 2y ago

There are much easier and cheaper ways of generating megavolts of electricity, I think the biggest barrier would be getting someone who knows enough about this to build it despite their skepticism about the validity of it.

dotancohen 2y ago
That is what grants are for. And DARPA when something more specific, like this, is to be investigated.
- giantg2 2y ago
  "And DARPA" That was my first thought - the military would be all over this if there's even a remote chance you could build energy shields or something.
CuriousCosmic 2y ago
Sure but for creating fairly uniform/gradual fields of static electricity over a large space? Electrostatic precipitators exist but they aren't large. Everything else I'm aware of that works on larger scales fails to satisfy the uniform/gradual aspect.
J0nL 2y ago
I remember hearing about this in the mid 2000s, someone at Brookhaven (US DOE/Army) jumped on filing a patent for it and dubbed it a plasma window. They found a use for it in particle accelerators to partition off sections that are under vacuum

dist-epoch 2y ago

> The reason this particular case hasn't been reproduced is just because it has no practical application It can be a tourist attraction you sell tickets to.

dotancohen 2y ago
In the fine article it is mentioned that the plant manager debated whether to fix it or sell tickets.
bluGill 2y ago
Can it? Or are their safety aspects that make it dangerous in enough situations that you shouldn't let the public there. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mostly safe but once in a while there was a deadly spark. For sure I wouldn't let someone with a pacemaker or similar device near this. I also wouldn't allow phones, wallets, key - anything with electronics - near.

Aurornis 2y ago

> Just setting it up would cost millions of dollars and running it may cost millions more. You're a couple orders of magnitude too high. Polypropylene film isn't that expensive. A thousand feet per minute is only 10 miles per hour, which is not that fast at all. Humidity and heat aren't hard to generate in a closed space. This is the kind of thing that's within the budget of some ambitious YouTubers, not millions of dollars. It's a fun urban legend. The red flag for anyone who has studied anything related to electromagnetism is the way it's described as a wall, not a force that gradually grows stronger as you get closer. Forces don't work at distance like that. You also have to suspend disbelief and imagine this force field didn't impact the equipment itself. We're supposed to believe that a grown man can't push up against the field at a distance away from the source, but the plastic film and machinery inside of the field are continuing to operate as usual? It's a fun urban legend. Leave it be, but don't take it seriously.

CuriousCosmic 2y ago
> it's described as a wall, not a force that gradually grows stronger as you get closer. Forces don't work at distance like that. It's described as a wall because it's not just running a straight line. The PP line creates an archway where the "wall" is located. That's where the field is most intense. It's noticeable elsewhere but that's the point where as indicated in the paper they can no longer push through it. > You also have to suspend disbelief and imagine this force field didn't impact the equipment itself. We're supposed to believe that a grown man can't push up against the field at a distance away from the source, but the plastic film and machinery inside of the field are continuing to operate as usual? This is also addressed in the paper. The lines can run 50-100% faster than it normally does but the faster they run it the more problematic the interference is. So during normal operation they limited it to 750-1000fpm.
joemi 2y ago
The article mentions "50K ft. rolls 20ft wide". While you might not need the full 50K ft length (if you can even buy such a roll with less length), the 20 ft wide spec is probably fairly important. I wonder how much that'd cost, including transportation? Also, I have no idea how much it'd cost to buy or make machinery and supports to sufficiently handle such a sized roll. What are you estimating these costs would be?

hinkley 2y ago

I miss MythBusters.

KennyBlanken 2y ago
I don't. It was shitty experiments presented to the clueless public as an example of how science works. The experiments usually did a terrible job of actually testing things, were so badly designed they malfunctioned more than anything else, and half the time they'd get results that were at best inconclusive or seems one way and they'd just declare it to be the other. I think those two clowns did more to harm scientific literacy than almost anyone else except maybe the Texas Board of Education. Not to mention, Adam is pretty well known for being a tool.
- Daneel_ 2y ago
  That's certainly not the take away I have from the show. It inspired many to think for themselves and made science approachable and fun. They made a genuine effort to be scientific within the bounds of the show. I think they've done a great service to the field, personally. Can you cite any sources for Adam being a 'tool'? He seems like a high-energy kind of guy, but this is the first I've heard of him being disliked by crew. Usually I've heard the opposite; that he gets on well with other crew members.

Animats 2y ago

Ah. Nice to have a solid reference. It's not an unusual problem. Anything which moves thin sheets of insulating material at high speed can cause this. And so, there are standard devices for dealing with it. The simplest is copper tinsel. That's even available at WalMart.[1] There are fancier systems. [2] The static eliminator doesn't have to touch the product. Close is good enough. Maybe 1 inch for tinsel, much greater for the active devices. [1] https://www.walmart.com/search?q=anti-static+tinsel https://www.walmart.com/search?q=anti-static+tinsel [2] https://www.takk.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2023-TAKK-catalog.pdf https://www.takk.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/2023-TAKK-ca...

actionfromafar 2y ago

https://web.archive.org/web/20160308070438/http://centxesdassoc.homestead.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160308070438/http://centxesdas...