5 ms·

It sounds like we have established that body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria are not really the same thing? Two conditions can have a similar thread but not be

It sounds like we have established that body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria are not really the same thing? Two conditions can have a similar thread but not be the same or even related, nor require the same approach or treatment. In terms of "people being convinced by others", I think this is a relatively recent phenomenon. I think it's possible to be simultaneously concerned about social contagion and social influences, especially among young people who don't have a fully developed understanding of themselves, hasty treatments without due diligence on behalf of medical providers, commercial incentives in the medical community, etc, etc... while also acknowledging that some people simply do suffer from legitimate, intractable gender dysphoria. There is no evidence that I can find that reparative therapy is effective. A teenager being lured into something on social media for social clout is simply not the same thing as a person who genuinely, intractably believes that they were born in the wrong body. > If I was gender dysphoric (unable to accept the truth and be comfortable in my own body) One thing I find interesting about this framing ("unable to accept the truth", "affirm my delusion") is that it seems to ignore any kind of biological/chemical occurrences in the body and brain that could explain gender dysphoria and instead casts it purely in a judgemental "these trans people are just nuts" light, which seems odd given that this is a topic on which we clearly don't have all the answers.

countarthur 2y ago
I agree with absolutely everything you've said here! Just my alternative conclusion is: you can't fix anything by compelling people to play along with someone else's delusion, whether the source is social, psychological, biochemical, sexual, whatever.
- brandon272 2y ago
  A "delusion" would be looking down and seeing a penis where a vagina exists. There is nothing delusional about understanding and acknowledging a difference between your identity and biological sex and seeking alignment between the two, in fact, it's a pretty rational approach versus the alternative of living in permanent misery. Just because we cannot see the physical manifestation of suffering or understand someone's experience when put through the lens of our own experience does not mean that their suffering does not exist or is irrational or delusional. Many chronic pain sufferers understand this. One thing I can't understand is the assertion that simply respecting another person, usually by doing nothing other than accommodating some alternative pronoun use is such an incredible burden so as to cause apparent extreme mental anguish among the people being asked for this accommodation. If I have an acquaintance who is transgender, using their preferred pronouns that match their outward appearance and identity is: 1) Not difficult - what is more difficult and socially strange is referring to a person who is trying to present as a woman a "man" or a person who is trying to present as a man a "woman". 2) Not a self-delusion - or any kind of determination at all, really - about their biological sex. I have encountered non-transgender people in my life who are androgynous. You either make a mistake with their pronouns, or ask. There is no way of knowing what their biological makeup is, and I don't experience any kind of internal consternation over it. You take what they say at face value and move on. 3) Is simply offering a modicum of respect. So much of all of this is tied up in the fact that a lot of people, for whatever reason, just really want to be mean. It seems their default is to be sneering, judgemental, and offer behavior that is more indicative of the worst instincts of high school students rather than well-adjusted adults.
  - countarthur 2y ago
    It doesn't cause extreme mental anguish, I just... don't have to play along with childish games like pretending someone can be the opposite sex. I just don't! However easy or respectful you think it would be for me to play make believe, or even just pay two-faced lip service. That seems to really wind people up but since the executive order today (I'm not American incidentally), everyone is going to have to get used to it. I don't sneer, by the way. Never have, never will! I'm more of a smirker. ;)
    - brandon272 2y ago
      > It doesn't cause extreme mental anguish, I just... don't have to play along with childish games like pretending someone can be the opposite sex. See, this is where you guys get it twisted. This is not a matter of playing along, it's not a game. It's a matter of social practicality. Example: If you meet a new person who clearly appears to be a woman, do you use female pronouns with that person? What if that person is biologically male and has transitioned, and you simply don't know that? Presumably you don't do genital inspections on every new person you meet to ensure that you are not "playing along with childish games", right?
      - chlodwig 2y ago
        I do not advocate routine genital check for office workers. The crucial questions for me are the following: 1) should institutions that have female only spaces or events be allowed to exclude pre-op transwomen? Post-op? For example, the women's only nude spa in Seattle that got in trouble for excluding a transwoman -- https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-washington-spa-fights-antidiscrimination-laws-at-ninth-circuit/ https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-was... 2) If a coworker of mine who I know to be a biological male (he has sired children, etc.) socially transitions (no surgery), should I be forced to call him "she" and say that he is a woman? What if he makes almost zero effort to pass as a woman? What if he medically transitions? 3) Should I be able to make an argument on social media (Reddit etc.) such as "Men cannot get pregant" or "trans women are not real women" without getting banned for hateful conduct? All three of these things are really happening, and are the real issues getting me freaked out (also, that and transitioning kids who very obviously are not "girls in a boys body")

countarthur 2y ago

I agree with absolutely everything you've said here! Just my alternative conclusion is: you can't fix anything by compelling people to play along with someone else's delusion, whether the source is social, psychological, biochemical, sexual, whatever.

brandon272 2y ago
A "delusion" would be looking down and seeing a penis where a vagina exists. There is nothing delusional about understanding and acknowledging a difference between your identity and biological sex and seeking alignment between the two, in fact, it's a pretty rational approach versus the alternative of living in permanent misery. Just because we cannot see the physical manifestation of suffering or understand someone's experience when put through the lens of our own experience does not mean that their suffering does not exist or is irrational or delusional. Many chronic pain sufferers understand this. One thing I can't understand is the assertion that simply respecting another person, usually by doing nothing other than accommodating some alternative pronoun use is such an incredible burden so as to cause apparent extreme mental anguish among the people being asked for this accommodation. If I have an acquaintance who is transgender, using their preferred pronouns that match their outward appearance and identity is: 1) Not difficult - what is more difficult and socially strange is referring to a person who is trying to present as a woman a "man" or a person who is trying to present as a man a "woman". 2) Not a self-delusion - or any kind of determination at all, really - about their biological sex. I have encountered non-transgender people in my life who are androgynous. You either make a mistake with their pronouns, or ask. There is no way of knowing what their biological makeup is, and I don't experience any kind of internal consternation over it. You take what they say at face value and move on. 3) Is simply offering a modicum of respect. So much of all of this is tied up in the fact that a lot of people, for whatever reason, just really want to be mean. It seems their default is to be sneering, judgemental, and offer behavior that is more indicative of the worst instincts of high school students rather than well-adjusted adults.
- countarthur 2y ago
  It doesn't cause extreme mental anguish, I just... don't have to play along with childish games like pretending someone can be the opposite sex. I just don't! However easy or respectful you think it would be for me to play make believe, or even just pay two-faced lip service. That seems to really wind people up but since the executive order today (I'm not American incidentally), everyone is going to have to get used to it. I don't sneer, by the way. Never have, never will! I'm more of a smirker. ;)
  - brandon272 2y ago
    > It doesn't cause extreme mental anguish, I just... don't have to play along with childish games like pretending someone can be the opposite sex. See, this is where you guys get it twisted. This is not a matter of playing along, it's not a game. It's a matter of social practicality. Example: If you meet a new person who clearly appears to be a woman, do you use female pronouns with that person? What if that person is biologically male and has transitioned, and you simply don't know that? Presumably you don't do genital inspections on every new person you meet to ensure that you are not "playing along with childish games", right?
    - chlodwig 2y ago
      I do not advocate routine genital check for office workers. The crucial questions for me are the following: 1) should institutions that have female only spaces or events be allowed to exclude pre-op transwomen? Post-op? For example, the women's only nude spa in Seattle that got in trouble for excluding a transwoman -- https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-washington-spa-fights-antidiscrimination-laws-at-ninth-circuit/ https://www.courthousenews.com/after-banning-trans-women-was... 2) If a coworker of mine who I know to be a biological male (he has sired children, etc.) socially transitions (no surgery), should I be forced to call him "she" and say that he is a woman? What if he makes almost zero effort to pass as a woman? What if he medically transitions? 3) Should I be able to make an argument on social media (Reddit etc.) such as "Men cannot get pregant" or "trans women are not real women" without getting banned for hateful conduct? All three of these things are really happening, and are the real issues getting me freaked out (also, that and transitioning kids who very obviously are not "girls in a boys body")