4 ms·

These are good points and great questions! Your description of getting surgeries based on a distorted view of what they see in the mirror sounds exactly like g

These are good points and great questions! Your description of getting surgeries based on a distorted view of what they see in the mirror sounds exactly like gender dysphoria to me. I have a big nose like you and even having had romantic partners compliment me on it hasn't stopped me feeling bad about it, but I agree it's definitely more trivial than believing you ought to be the other sex, somehow. They usually say "it's handsome" rather than try to convince me it's a normal size, which is perhaps a more merciful lie! I don't know about CBT, but I know that people can be convinced by others that they should be the other sex: it happens all the time on youtube, tiktok, tumblr and across the web. That's how this became so wide spread in the first place. So I absolutely believe people can be helped to accept the truth of themselves and their real body and not require hormonal or surgical interventions. Here I'm mostly talking about insecure young people - the very different cohort of older men where there's a sexual element involved might be boned (pardon the pun!) but that's all the more reason not to have the rest of society change laws and social mores to facilitate it. If I was gender dysphoric (unable to accept the truth and be comfortable in my own body) AND believing in gender identity then I'm sure I would expect people to affirm my delusion and I'd viscerally dislike those that didn't. If I was later cured, I'd hope I'd appreciate those who stuck to their guns and didn't lie to me. Maybe it's impossible to fully accept yourself (like our big noses) and one just has to live with it and cope with it as healthily as they can. I would consider getting my nose carved down to size (regardless of how big it really is) a failure for everyone involved.

brandon272 2y ago
It sounds like we have established that body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria are not really the same thing? Two conditions can have a similar thread but not be the same or even related, nor require the same approach or treatment. In terms of "people being convinced by others", I think this is a relatively recent phenomenon. I think it's possible to be simultaneously concerned about social contagion and social influences, especially among young people who don't have a fully developed understanding of themselves, hasty treatments without due diligence on behalf of medical providers, commercial incentives in the medical community, etc, etc... while also acknowledging that some people simply do suffer from legitimate, intractable gender dysphoria. There is no evidence that I can find that reparative therapy is effective. A teenager being lured into something on social media for social clout is simply not the same thing as a person who genuinely, intractably believes that they were born in the wrong body. > If I was gender dysphoric (unable to accept the truth and be comfortable in my own body) One thing I find interesting about this framing ("unable to accept the truth", "affirm my delusion") is that it seems to ignore any kind of biological/chemical occurrences in the body and brain that could explain gender dysphoria and instead casts it purely in a judgemental "these trans people are just nuts" light, which seems odd given that this is a topic on which we clearly don't have all the answers.
- countarthur 2y ago
  I agree with absolutely everything you've said here! Just my alternative conclusion is: you can't fix anything by compelling people to play along with someone else's delusion, whether the source is social, psychological, biochemical, sexual, whatever.
  - brandon272 2y ago
    A "delusion" would be looking down and seeing a penis where a vagina exists. There is nothing delusional about understanding and acknowledging a difference between your identity and biological sex and seeking alignment between the two, in fact, it's a pretty rational approach versus the alternative of living in permanent misery. Just because we cannot see the physical manifestation of suffering or understand someone's experience when put through the lens of our own experience does not mean that their suffering does not exist or is irrational or delusional. Many chronic pain sufferers understand this. One thing I can't understand is the assertion that simply respecting another person, usually by doing nothing other than accommodating some alternative pronoun use is such an incredible burden so as to cause apparent extreme mental anguish among the people being asked for this accommodation. If I have an acquaintance who is transgender, using their preferred pronouns that match their outward appearance and identity is: 1) Not difficult - what is more difficult and socially strange is referring to a person who is trying to present as a woman a "man" or a person who is trying to present as a man a "woman". 2) Not a self-delusion - or any kind of determination at all, really - about their biological sex. I have encountered non-transgender people in my life who are androgynous. You either make a mistake with their pronouns, or ask. There is no way of knowing what their biological makeup is, and I don't experience any kind of internal consternation over it. You take what they say at face value and move on. 3) Is simply offering a modicum of respect. So much of all of this is tied up in the fact that a lot of people, for whatever reason, just really want to be mean. It seems their default is to be sneering, judgemental, and offer behavior that is more indicative of the worst instincts of high school students rather than well-adjusted adults.
    - countarthur 2y ago

brandon272 2y ago

It sounds like we have established that body dysmorphia and gender dysphoria are not really the same thing? Two conditions can have a similar thread but not be the same or even related, nor require the same approach or treatment. In terms of "people being convinced by others", I think this is a relatively recent phenomenon. I think it's possible to be simultaneously concerned about social contagion and social influences, especially among young people who don't have a fully developed understanding of themselves, hasty treatments without due diligence on behalf of medical providers, commercial incentives in the medical community, etc, etc... while also acknowledging that some people simply do suffer from legitimate, intractable gender dysphoria. There is no evidence that I can find that reparative therapy is effective. A teenager being lured into something on social media for social clout is simply not the same thing as a person who genuinely, intractably believes that they were born in the wrong body. > If I was gender dysphoric (unable to accept the truth and be comfortable in my own body) One thing I find interesting about this framing ("unable to accept the truth", "affirm my delusion") is that it seems to ignore any kind of biological/chemical occurrences in the body and brain that could explain gender dysphoria and instead casts it purely in a judgemental "these trans people are just nuts" light, which seems odd given that this is a topic on which we clearly don't have all the answers.

countarthur 2y ago
I agree with absolutely everything you've said here! Just my alternative conclusion is: you can't fix anything by compelling people to play along with someone else's delusion, whether the source is social, psychological, biochemical, sexual, whatever.
- brandon272 2y ago
  A "delusion" would be looking down and seeing a penis where a vagina exists. There is nothing delusional about understanding and acknowledging a difference between your identity and biological sex and seeking alignment between the two, in fact, it's a pretty rational approach versus the alternative of living in permanent misery. Just because we cannot see the physical manifestation of suffering or understand someone's experience when put through the lens of our own experience does not mean that their suffering does not exist or is irrational or delusional. Many chronic pain sufferers understand this. One thing I can't understand is the assertion that simply respecting another person, usually by doing nothing other than accommodating some alternative pronoun use is such an incredible burden so as to cause apparent extreme mental anguish among the people being asked for this accommodation. If I have an acquaintance who is transgender, using their preferred pronouns that match their outward appearance and identity is: 1) Not difficult - what is more difficult and socially strange is referring to a person who is trying to present as a woman a "man" or a person who is trying to present as a man a "woman". 2) Not a self-delusion - or any kind of determination at all, really - about their biological sex. I have encountered non-transgender people in my life who are androgynous. You either make a mistake with their pronouns, or ask. There is no way of knowing what their biological makeup is, and I don't experience any kind of internal consternation over it. You take what they say at face value and move on. 3) Is simply offering a modicum of respect. So much of all of this is tied up in the fact that a lot of people, for whatever reason, just really want to be mean. It seems their default is to be sneering, judgemental, and offer behavior that is more indicative of the worst instincts of high school students rather than well-adjusted adults.
  - countarthur 2y ago