4 ms·

I'm certainly of two minds on this. On one hand, this reminds me of how all of the kids were going to be completely helpless in the real world because "no one

I'm certainly of two minds on this. On one hand, this reminds me of how all of the kids were going to be completely helpless in the real world because "no one carries a calculator in their pocket". Then calculators became something ~everyone has in their pocket (and the kids ended up just fine). On the other hand, I believe in the value of "learning to learn", developing media literacy, and all of the other positives gained when you research and form conclusions on things independently. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle: leveraging LLMs as a learning aid, rather than LLMs being the final stop.

parsimo2010 2y ago
tl;dr: I agree. We don't teach slide rules and log tables in school anymore. Calculators and computers have created a huge metacognitive laziness for me, and I teach calculus and have a PhD in statistics. I barely remember the unit circle except for multiples of pi/4 radians. I can do it in multiples of pi/6 but I'm slower. But guess what? I don't think I'm a worse mathematician because I don't remember these things reflexively. I might be a little slower getting the answer to a trivial problem, but I can still find a solution to a complex problem. I look up integral forms in my pocket book of integrals or on Wolfram Alpha, because even if I could derive the answer myself I don't think I'd be right 100% of the time. So metacognitive laziness has set in for me already. But I think as long as we can figure out how to stop metacognitive laziness before it turns into full-fledged brain-rot, then we'll be okay. We'll survive as long as we can still teach students how to think critically, and figure out how to let AI assist us rather than turn us into the humans on the ship from Wall-E. I'm a little worried that we'll make some short term mistakes (like not adapting our cirriculum fast enough), but it will work out.
- mlyle 2y ago
  I am not sure calculators have hurt us much on the high end of mathematical ability. But man I cringe when I see 18 year old students reach for a calculator to multiply something by .1.
- largbae 2y ago
  I think you're right at the edge of explaining why this "laziness" is a good thing. Everything that we have made is built on what we had before, and abstracts away what we had before. 99% of us don't remember how to make even the simplest Assembly program, and yet we unleash billions of instructions per second on the world. Even outside of math and computers, when was the last time you primed a well pump or filled an oil lamp? All of these tasks have been abstracted away, freeing us to focus on ever-more-specialized pursuits. Those that are useful will too be abstracted away, and for the better.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    > when was the last time you primed a well pump or filled an oil lamp? All of these tasks have been abstracted away They have not been abstracted away, they have been made obsolete. Significant difference. The danger with LLMs is people will never learn tasks that are still needed.
    - parsimo2010 2y ago
      Your comment exposes how much metacognitive laziness you have in modern society that you didn't realize that people still do these things, just not you. They aren't obsolete tasks, just done at a layer you don't see. I don't have to prime a well pump any more because my house and workplace are hooked into the municipal water system. I don't have to prime a pump because that task has gotten so abstract as to become turning a faucet handle. But engineers at the municipal water plant do have to know how to do this task. Similarly, filling an oil lamp and lighting it is now abstracted for normal people as flipping a light switch (maybe changing a light bulb is a more appropriate comparison). But I actually have filled an oil lamp when I was a kid because we kept "decorative" hurricane lamps in my house that we used when the power went out. The exact task of filling an oil lamp is not common, but filling a generator with fuel is still needed to keep the lights on in an emergency, although it is usually handled by the maintenance staff of apartment buildings and large office buildings.
MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
> On the other hand, I believe in the value of "learning to learn", developing media literacy, and all of the other positives gained when you research and form conclusions on things independently. That is not going away. Learning better prompts, learning when to ignore AI, learning how to take information and turn it into something practical. These new skills will replace the old. How many of us can still... - Saddle a horse - Tell time without a watch - Sew a shirt - Create fabric to sew a shirt - Hunt with primitive tools - Make fire We can shelter children from AI, or we can teach them how to use it to further themselves. Talk to the Amish if you want to see how it works out when you forgo anything that feels too futuristic. A respectable life, sure. But would any of us reading this choose it?
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >How many of us can still... <stuff> Yes, this is what I meant by the calculator part of my comment. You've got some other good examples. >learning when to ignore AI, learning how to take information and turn it into something practical. This is what I meant by using LLMs as a tool rather than an end.
  - skydhash 2y ago
    How many of us still have to do these things? You either eed to do them or you don’t. If you do, you will learn how or find someone that do. We still need to calculate numbers and I can say it’s silly if I find someone need to get a calculator to do 5x20. Same if you’re taking hours and multiple sheets of paper for something that will take you a few minutes with a calculator. There’s a question of scale and basic understanding that divides the two.
    - ziddoap 2y ago
      >How many of us still have to do these things? Yep, we agree. That's the whole point of what I said in the first half of my original comment. At one time, they were common skills. Things changed, they aren't common, they aren't really needed (for most people), and everyone is doing just fine without them. We've freed up time and mental capacity for other (hopefully more beneficial) tasks. (I'm confused why this reply and the other above it are are just restating the first part of my original comment, but framing it like it's not a restatement).
65 2y ago
It's astounding to me that people just like... always trust whatever the LLM says. I have some friends who use ChatGPT for everything. From doing work to asking simple questions. One of my friends wanted a bio on a certain musician and asked ChatGPT. It's a little frightening he couldn't, you know, read the Wikipedia page of this musician, where all of the same information is and there are sources for this material. My mom said she used ChatGPT to make a "capsule wardrobe" for her. I'm thinking to myself (I did not say this to her)... you can't just like look at your clothes and get rid of ones you don't wear? Why does a computer need to make this simple decision? I'm really not sure LLMs should ever be used as a learning aid. I have never seen a reason to use them over, you know, searching something online. Or thinking of your own creative story. If someone can make a solid use case as to why LLMs are useful I would like to hear.
- kridsdale1 2y ago
  Regarding your mom’s clothes: she wasn’t asking the machine to give advice she couldn’t think of on her own, she was seeking external validation and permission to purge and override the hoarder urge of her personality. This is like when CEOs hire outside consulting firms to do layoffs for them. Pinning the pain of loss on some scapegoat makes it more bearable.
- nottorp 2y ago
  > One of my friends wanted a bio on a certain musician and asked ChatGPT. I use ChatGPT (or Gemini) instead of web searches. You can blame the content and link farms that are top of the search results, and the search engines focusing on advertising instead of search, because we're the product. Why your friend doesn't know about wikipedia is another matter, if i wanted a generic info page about some topic i'd go directly there. But if i wanted to know if Bob Geldof's hair is blue, I might ask a LLM instead of reading the whole wikipedia page. I also ask LLMs for introductory info about programming topics i don't know about, because i don't want to go to google and end up on w3schools, geeksforgeeks and crap like that. I don't really trust LLMs for advanced programming topics, you know, what people pay me for. But they're fine for giving me a function signature or even a small example.
  - 2y ago
twobitshifter 2y ago
I was taught to not use calculators on exams and homework and that’s why I am able to do math in my head today. I have recently seen GenZ perplexed by card games with addition and making change. For millennials, this is grade school stuff.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  Sure, there's obviously a scale. I'm not about to divide 54,432 by 7.6, even though I was taught how to. I'll pull out my phone. On the other end, I'm not going to pull out my phone to figure out I owe you $0.35. I think the point I was trying to make still stands.
Lanolderen 2y ago
I think it's closer to the library example. My parents have mentioned how they had to go to a library and look for books whereas my generation can just use the internet. Realistically my guess is that the bar for broad knowledge and ability to get to details quickly will increase. There's a lot of value in understanding multiple disciplines at a mediocre level if you can very quickly access the details when needed. Especially since learning speed tends to get slower and slower the deeper you go. Also since every time I've needed to do something complicated, even if I knew the details it was important enough to double check my knowledge anyway.

parsimo2010 2y ago

tl;dr: I agree. We don't teach slide rules and log tables in school anymore. Calculators and computers have created a huge metacognitive laziness for me, and I teach calculus and have a PhD in statistics. I barely remember the unit circle except for multiples of pi/4 radians. I can do it in multiples of pi/6 but I'm slower. But guess what? I don't think I'm a worse mathematician because I don't remember these things reflexively. I might be a little slower getting the answer to a trivial problem, but I can still find a solution to a complex problem. I look up integral forms in my pocket book of integrals or on Wolfram Alpha, because even if I could derive the answer myself I don't think I'd be right 100% of the time. So metacognitive laziness has set in for me already. But I think as long as we can figure out how to stop metacognitive laziness before it turns into full-fledged brain-rot, then we'll be okay. We'll survive as long as we can still teach students how to think critically, and figure out how to let AI assist us rather than turn us into the humans on the ship from Wall-E. I'm a little worried that we'll make some short term mistakes (like not adapting our cirriculum fast enough), but it will work out.

mlyle 2y ago
I am not sure calculators have hurt us much on the high end of mathematical ability. But man I cringe when I see 18 year old students reach for a calculator to multiply something by .1.
largbae 2y ago
I think you're right at the edge of explaining why this "laziness" is a good thing. Everything that we have made is built on what we had before, and abstracts away what we had before. 99% of us don't remember how to make even the simplest Assembly program, and yet we unleash billions of instructions per second on the world. Even outside of math and computers, when was the last time you primed a well pump or filled an oil lamp? All of these tasks have been abstracted away, freeing us to focus on ever-more-specialized pursuits. Those that are useful will too be abstracted away, and for the better.
- nottorp 2y ago
  > when was the last time you primed a well pump or filled an oil lamp? All of these tasks have been abstracted away They have not been abstracted away, they have been made obsolete. Significant difference. The danger with LLMs is people will never learn tasks that are still needed.
  - parsimo2010 2y ago
    Your comment exposes how much metacognitive laziness you have in modern society that you didn't realize that people still do these things, just not you. They aren't obsolete tasks, just done at a layer you don't see. I don't have to prime a well pump any more because my house and workplace are hooked into the municipal water system. I don't have to prime a pump because that task has gotten so abstract as to become turning a faucet handle. But engineers at the municipal water plant do have to know how to do this task. Similarly, filling an oil lamp and lighting it is now abstracted for normal people as flipping a light switch (maybe changing a light bulb is a more appropriate comparison). But I actually have filled an oil lamp when I was a kid because we kept "decorative" hurricane lamps in my house that we used when the power went out. The exact task of filling an oil lamp is not common, but filling a generator with fuel is still needed to keep the lights on in an emergency, although it is usually handled by the maintenance staff of apartment buildings and large office buildings.

MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago

> On the other hand, I believe in the value of "learning to learn", developing media literacy, and all of the other positives gained when you research and form conclusions on things independently. That is not going away. Learning better prompts, learning when to ignore AI, learning how to take information and turn it into something practical. These new skills will replace the old. How many of us can still... - Saddle a horse - Tell time without a watch - Sew a shirt - Create fabric to sew a shirt - Hunt with primitive tools - Make fire We can shelter children from AI, or we can teach them how to use it to further themselves. Talk to the Amish if you want to see how it works out when you forgo anything that feels too futuristic. A respectable life, sure. But would any of us reading this choose it?

ziddoap 2y ago
>How many of us can still... <stuff> Yes, this is what I meant by the calculator part of my comment. You've got some other good examples. >learning when to ignore AI, learning how to take information and turn it into something practical. This is what I meant by using LLMs as a tool rather than an end.
- skydhash 2y ago
  How many of us still have to do these things? You either eed to do them or you don’t. If you do, you will learn how or find someone that do. We still need to calculate numbers and I can say it’s silly if I find someone need to get a calculator to do 5x20. Same if you’re taking hours and multiple sheets of paper for something that will take you a few minutes with a calculator. There’s a question of scale and basic understanding that divides the two.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    >How many of us still have to do these things? Yep, we agree. That's the whole point of what I said in the first half of my original comment. At one time, they were common skills. Things changed, they aren't common, they aren't really needed (for most people), and everyone is doing just fine without them. We've freed up time and mental capacity for other (hopefully more beneficial) tasks. (I'm confused why this reply and the other above it are are just restating the first part of my original comment, but framing it like it's not a restatement).

65 2y ago

It's astounding to me that people just like... always trust whatever the LLM says. I have some friends who use ChatGPT for everything. From doing work to asking simple questions. One of my friends wanted a bio on a certain musician and asked ChatGPT. It's a little frightening he couldn't, you know, read the Wikipedia page of this musician, where all of the same information is and there are sources for this material. My mom said she used ChatGPT to make a "capsule wardrobe" for her. I'm thinking to myself (I did not say this to her)... you can't just like look at your clothes and get rid of ones you don't wear? Why does a computer need to make this simple decision? I'm really not sure LLMs should ever be used as a learning aid. I have never seen a reason to use them over, you know, searching something online. Or thinking of your own creative story. If someone can make a solid use case as to why LLMs are useful I would like to hear.

kridsdale1 2y ago
Regarding your mom’s clothes: she wasn’t asking the machine to give advice she couldn’t think of on her own, she was seeking external validation and permission to purge and override the hoarder urge of her personality. This is like when CEOs hire outside consulting firms to do layoffs for them. Pinning the pain of loss on some scapegoat makes it more bearable.
nottorp 2y ago
> One of my friends wanted a bio on a certain musician and asked ChatGPT. I use ChatGPT (or Gemini) instead of web searches. You can blame the content and link farms that are top of the search results, and the search engines focusing on advertising instead of search, because we're the product. Why your friend doesn't know about wikipedia is another matter, if i wanted a generic info page about some topic i'd go directly there. But if i wanted to know if Bob Geldof's hair is blue, I might ask a LLM instead of reading the whole wikipedia page. I also ask LLMs for introductory info about programming topics i don't know about, because i don't want to go to google and end up on w3schools, geeksforgeeks and crap like that. I don't really trust LLMs for advanced programming topics, you know, what people pay me for. But they're fine for giving me a function signature or even a small example.
- 2y ago

twobitshifter 2y ago

I was taught to not use calculators on exams and homework and that’s why I am able to do math in my head today. I have recently seen GenZ perplexed by card games with addition and making change. For millennials, this is grade school stuff.

ziddoap 2y ago
Sure, there's obviously a scale. I'm not about to divide 54,432 by 7.6, even though I was taught how to. I'll pull out my phone. On the other end, I'm not going to pull out my phone to figure out I owe you $0.35. I think the point I was trying to make still stands.

Lanolderen 2y ago

I think it's closer to the library example. My parents have mentioned how they had to go to a library and look for books whereas my generation can just use the internet. Realistically my guess is that the bar for broad knowledge and ability to get to details quickly will increase. There's a lot of value in understanding multiple disciplines at a mediocre level if you can very quickly access the details when needed. Especially since learning speed tends to get slower and slower the deeper you go. Also since every time I've needed to do something complicated, even if I knew the details it was important enough to double check my knowledge anyway.