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How? There's no workplace to speak in hushed tones. There's no manager or de facto leader to make first contact with union representatives. There's no way to k

How? There's no workplace to speak in hushed tones. There's no manager or de facto leader to make first contact with union representatives. There's no way to know when you've reached a quorum of local drivers. Make no mistake, I sympathize with you. Rideshare/third-party delivery drivers have become America's new techno-feudalist underclass.

parpfish 2y ago
I’ve often felt like there would be a lot of value for an app that’d simply let gig workers in an area find each other to talk and actually create a “workplace”. But I’m not sure how you’d fund its creation. No VC would want it and there’s not a wealthy user base to bootstrap it.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  Typically such things are bootstrapped not by a wealthy user base but by a talented user base who write the code and set up the organization themselves. However, if you do need some money for boostrapping, there are likely unions out there that would be willing to grant/lend the sums needed, which should be five figures. Taking VC money would be counter-productive, making you beholden to conflicting interests. P.S. The motivation for setting something like this up doesn't necessarily need to be purely selfless. It's not going to make you a billionaire, but if successful a non-profit or co-op you set up to do this can pay you a six figure salary for a job that has significant meaningfulness and significant agency (aka control over your own work). And by being a non-profit or co-op the lack of conflict of interest should make it more likely to be successful.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  That's a smart idea. It seems like it shouldn't be too expensive to get something like this up and running, but scalability once it's available will be an issue. Estimates for how many gig workers there are in the US vary between "over 20 million" and "about 60 million." They're already tech-literate, they probably talk to each other, so there's a chance that an app like this would experience very quick growth. I wonder how gig services would react to something like this. They'd probably try to identify users and deplatform them, so in addition to the financial aspects, one difficult part would be how to protect and anonymize such a platform's users.
  - parpfish 2y ago
    yeah, i think that the value proposition for a platform like this over just setting up some sort of discord/message board would be based having a central trusted entity that's able to provide user accounts that are verified AND anonymous. you'd want to know that the people you're talking to are actually your coworkers and not corporate plants, but you also want to be sufficiently anonymous to avoid workplace retaliation OR weird stalkers.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  > No VC would want it and there’s not a wealthy user base to bootstrap it. More to the point, VCs invented these apps specifically to disenfranchise workers and vaccuum up the lost cost as a bullshit "service fee".
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > I’ve often felt like there would be a lot of value for an app that’d simply let gig workers in an area find each other to talk and actually create a “workplace”. What would that mean, to be a workplace?
  - parpfish 2y ago
    it could be anything that just allows social connection between people that are doing the same job in the same geographic region but are largely invisible to one another. i'd try not to be prescriptive about it, but it could cover anything from a light 'random chat' channel to vent about petty workplace annoyances, 'tips and tricks' for success, or more serious channels to talk about workplace safety/conditions/unionization
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      But if it's a gig, where's the workplace? E.g. if all the domestic builders in my town got together, who would they unionise against? They're not employed; that's not a gig.
      - parpfish 2y ago
        Domestic builders aren’t really what come to mind for “gig workers”. This would be for folks who have some app controlling their work- uber drivers, door dashers, etc.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
jordiburgos 2y ago
Well, those companies have a CEO, Director of Something, etc...
dr-detroit 2y ago
[dead]
prepend 2y ago
I’m guessing there a discord server somewhere with 90% management agents just waiting to honeypot potential union workers. Seems like digital workplace should be easier to organize with all the community tools we have.
varjag 2y ago
“It’s not unusual, except that Manna is telling you exactly what to do every second of every day. If it asks you to go to the back and get merchandise, it tells you exactly where to walk to go get it. And here is the weirdest part — I never see another employee the entire day. The way it makes me walk, I never run into anyone else. I can go for a full shift and never see another employee. Even our breaks are staggered. Everyone takes their breaks alone. We all arrive at staggered times. It’s like Manna is trying to totally eliminate human interaction on the job.” All described in prescient classic: https://marshallbrain.com/manna1 https://marshallbrain.com/manna1
- gunian 2y ago
  this sounds like my personal nirvana no human contact but able to exist maybe the buddhists were right nirvana exists...
  - Tostino 2y ago
    It wasn't "no human contact", it was "no contact with other employees/coworkers". Big difference.
    - gunian 2y ago
      restaurants/pickup you can just walk in with headphones wave and show phone customers usually want stuff left at door no workplace cliques, meetings a win is a win. when I pray to the poofy guy in the sky I thank him for creating the humans that created this
xnorswap 2y ago
In the UK you can (and usually do) unionize without a workplace. Many are industry-specific such as the "Communications wokers' union", but there are also general workers' unions such as GMB [1] or Unite. It would be possible, indeed probably preferable, to form a "Delivery workers' union". It would be a union of delivery drivers who would pool resources to fight for common rights. [1] https://www.gmb.org.uk/campaigns/deliveroo/ https://www.gmb.org.uk/campaigns/deliveroo/
jdietrich 2y ago
The ADCU has been representing app drivers and couriers in the UK for years, but they're probably not the best model. https://www.adcu.org.uk/ https://www.adcu.org.uk/ https://www.wired.com/story/adcu-gig-economy-union-toxic-report/ https://www.wired.com/story/adcu-gig-economy-union-toxic-rep... The reality is that a large proportion of app workers are undocumented. Worker accounts are rented or sold to people who do not have the legal right to work. We can't reasonably address the issue of working conditions on these platforms if we don't acknowledge that fact. https://inews.co.uk/news/deliveroo-uber-eats-just-eat-illegal-worker-accounts-2956956 https://inews.co.uk/news/deliveroo-uber-eats-just-eat-illega...
- telesilla 2y ago
  Exactly - anywhere you have undocumented or unregistered or undereducated workers you have exploitation. I don't know why this isn't discussed more widely as being a core element of the gig economy. There isn't a technology or unionization fix for this as it's a social and polite problem. I've looked into cooperative worker-owned solutions but for certain strata of society there are more gaping problems than the algorithm.
reaperducer 2y ago
There's no workplace to speak in hushed tones. There's no way to know when you've reached a quorum of local drivers. SMS. When I drove for Uber, there were massive group chats amongst the drivers. They even organized planned shortages in certain parts of the city when rates got too low.
constantcrying 2y ago
The much greater problem is that they are not employed. They are just self employed people, who take on gigs from various platforms. They can, by definition, not unionize. Even striking is basically out of the question, as organization is near impossible and most of these people could not sustain months with zero pay. This needs to be just made illegal, it is just a subversion of labor laws.

parpfish 2y ago

I’ve often felt like there would be a lot of value for an app that’d simply let gig workers in an area find each other to talk and actually create a “workplace”. But I’m not sure how you’d fund its creation. No VC would want it and there’s not a wealthy user base to bootstrap it.

bryanlarsen 2y ago
Typically such things are bootstrapped not by a wealthy user base but by a talented user base who write the code and set up the organization themselves. However, if you do need some money for boostrapping, there are likely unions out there that would be willing to grant/lend the sums needed, which should be five figures. Taking VC money would be counter-productive, making you beholden to conflicting interests. P.S. The motivation for setting something like this up doesn't necessarily need to be purely selfless. It's not going to make you a billionaire, but if successful a non-profit or co-op you set up to do this can pay you a six figure salary for a job that has significant meaningfulness and significant agency (aka control over your own work). And by being a non-profit or co-op the lack of conflict of interest should make it more likely to be successful.
InsideOutSanta 2y ago
That's a smart idea. It seems like it shouldn't be too expensive to get something like this up and running, but scalability once it's available will be an issue. Estimates for how many gig workers there are in the US vary between "over 20 million" and "about 60 million." They're already tech-literate, they probably talk to each other, so there's a chance that an app like this would experience very quick growth. I wonder how gig services would react to something like this. They'd probably try to identify users and deplatform them, so in addition to the financial aspects, one difficult part would be how to protect and anonymize such a platform's users.
- parpfish 2y ago
  yeah, i think that the value proposition for a platform like this over just setting up some sort of discord/message board would be based having a central trusted entity that's able to provide user accounts that are verified AND anonymous. you'd want to know that the people you're talking to are actually your coworkers and not corporate plants, but you also want to be sufficiently anonymous to avoid workplace retaliation OR weird stalkers.
PittleyDunkin 2y ago
> No VC would want it and there’s not a wealthy user base to bootstrap it. More to the point, VCs invented these apps specifically to disenfranchise workers and vaccuum up the lost cost as a bullshit "service fee".
robertlagrant 2y ago
> I’ve often felt like there would be a lot of value for an app that’d simply let gig workers in an area find each other to talk and actually create a “workplace”. What would that mean, to be a workplace?
- parpfish 2y ago
  it could be anything that just allows social connection between people that are doing the same job in the same geographic region but are largely invisible to one another. i'd try not to be prescriptive about it, but it could cover anything from a light 'random chat' channel to vent about petty workplace annoyances, 'tips and tricks' for success, or more serious channels to talk about workplace safety/conditions/unionization
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    But if it's a gig, where's the workplace? E.g. if all the domestic builders in my town got together, who would they unionise against? They're not employed; that's not a gig.
    - parpfish 2y ago
      Domestic builders aren’t really what come to mind for “gig workers”. This would be for folks who have some app controlling their work- uber drivers, door dashers, etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

jordiburgos 2y ago

Well, those companies have a CEO, Director of Something, etc...

dr-detroit 2y ago

[dead]

prepend 2y ago

I’m guessing there a discord server somewhere with 90% management agents just waiting to honeypot potential union workers. Seems like digital workplace should be easier to organize with all the community tools we have.

varjag 2y ago

“It’s not unusual, except that Manna is telling you exactly what to do every second of every day. If it asks you to go to the back and get merchandise, it tells you exactly where to walk to go get it. And here is the weirdest part — I never see another employee the entire day. The way it makes me walk, I never run into anyone else. I can go for a full shift and never see another employee. Even our breaks are staggered. Everyone takes their breaks alone. We all arrive at staggered times. It’s like Manna is trying to totally eliminate human interaction on the job.” All described in prescient classic: https://marshallbrain.com/manna1 https://marshallbrain.com/manna1

gunian 2y ago
this sounds like my personal nirvana no human contact but able to exist maybe the buddhists were right nirvana exists...
- Tostino 2y ago
  It wasn't "no human contact", it was "no contact with other employees/coworkers". Big difference.
  - gunian 2y ago
    restaurants/pickup you can just walk in with headphones wave and show phone customers usually want stuff left at door no workplace cliques, meetings a win is a win. when I pray to the poofy guy in the sky I thank him for creating the humans that created this

xnorswap 2y ago

In the UK you can (and usually do) unionize without a workplace. Many are industry-specific such as the "Communications wokers' union", but there are also general workers' unions such as GMB [1] or Unite. It would be possible, indeed probably preferable, to form a "Delivery workers' union". It would be a union of delivery drivers who would pool resources to fight for common rights. [1] https://www.gmb.org.uk/campaigns/deliveroo/ https://www.gmb.org.uk/campaigns/deliveroo/

jdietrich 2y ago

The ADCU has been representing app drivers and couriers in the UK for years, but they're probably not the best model. https://www.adcu.org.uk/ https://www.adcu.org.uk/ https://www.wired.com/story/adcu-gig-economy-union-toxic-report/ https://www.wired.com/story/adcu-gig-economy-union-toxic-rep... The reality is that a large proportion of app workers are undocumented. Worker accounts are rented or sold to people who do not have the legal right to work. We can't reasonably address the issue of working conditions on these platforms if we don't acknowledge that fact. https://inews.co.uk/news/deliveroo-uber-eats-just-eat-illegal-worker-accounts-2956956 https://inews.co.uk/news/deliveroo-uber-eats-just-eat-illega...

telesilla 2y ago
Exactly - anywhere you have undocumented or unregistered or undereducated workers you have exploitation. I don't know why this isn't discussed more widely as being a core element of the gig economy. There isn't a technology or unionization fix for this as it's a social and polite problem. I've looked into cooperative worker-owned solutions but for certain strata of society there are more gaping problems than the algorithm.

reaperducer 2y ago

There's no workplace to speak in hushed tones. There's no way to know when you've reached a quorum of local drivers. SMS. When I drove for Uber, there were massive group chats amongst the drivers. They even organized planned shortages in certain parts of the city when rates got too low.

constantcrying 2y ago

The much greater problem is that they are not employed. They are just self employed people, who take on gigs from various platforms. They can, by definition, not unionize. Even striking is basically out of the question, as organization is near impossible and most of these people could not sustain months with zero pay. This needs to be just made illegal, it is just a subversion of labor laws.