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You have the opinion that Musk's gesture was perfectly innocent. Others don't think so. It's your opinion, and it's a valid hypothesis. But the other opinions a

by cauch 2y ago

You have the opinion that Musk's gesture was perfectly innocent. Others don't think so. It's your opinion, and it's a valid hypothesis. But the other opinions are as valid as yours. They are implying that Musk is not nice and don't give him the benefice of the doubt. You are implying that people criticizing Musk are not nice, and don't give them the benefice of the doubt. The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. On my side, I think it is very difficult to believe that Musk has done it 100% innocently. Musk is a troll, and it was a perfect opportunity to "trigger" people while pretending he did it innocently. I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), but I think it is very much plausible that he don't consider the Nazi salute dirty enough, so that he can use it to troll with despite the consequences (think of the message it sends to real Nazi sympathizers), which is already pretty bad. The views he has expressed otherwise (support to AfD, conspiracy theory, ...) just reinforce the idea that "100% innocently" is unlikely.

rofo1 2y ago
> The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. You have to prove that. You cannot just randomly keep saying it as a starting position because you hope nobody will call that out. He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? > I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), Again, you have to prove this. Be concrete: which ideas precisely? Which "concepts", which "family"?
- cauch 2y ago
  I had this kind of discussions before but unfortunately it is usually a waste of time, as any consensus amongst experts is waved away. > He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? I think this sentence already is quite telling. For example, Nazi privatized the German industry massively in the 30s, and there was a full wing of the Nazi party defending free markets and low government, with people like for example Walther Funk. They also had the support of big private industry leaders like Friedrich Thyssen. The opposed wing of the party, containing for example Göring, who were advocating for a deeper control by the state on economy in order to build up the army, got the favor of Hitler just before the war. But it does not mean that the Nazi ideology was incompatible with pro free market, low regulations and low government ideals: there were plenty of proper Nazi that were openly defending these ideals. > Which "concepts", which "family"? Well, that is usually where the well is poisoned. For example, AfD in Germany is widely recognised as grounded in Nazi values (the fact that it is the relevant party that attracts the most people who consider themselves as proper Nazi is a very good clue: why the self-recognized Nazi likes this party so much if this party does not share any of their values?). But then, it is easy to just say "na-ah, they have nothing to do with Nazi values", even if it does not correspond to the simple facts. Yet, Musk has recently openly supported this party. There are plenty of political party in Germany and in Europe. He could have not supported any party, the same way he did not in France, in Spain, in Italy, ... or he could have defended values, or he could have defended other parties that are basically pushing for the same economic policies that Musk is probably interested in. It is difficult to understand why Musk is suddenly entering the debate JUST to defend parties with strong nationalistic and xenophobic roots (not used as an insult, it's just a fact of what their policies are) if Musk does not share these values, and these values are indeed the values shared by the Nazi party.
  - rofo1 2y ago
    Why can't you discuss sincerely and directly to the point? Why do you start with: "it's a waste of time", "this is telling", "the ExP3rtz said this.." Stop moving the goal posts - I asked for direct examples, you say why didn't he supported parties in France and Spain. NAZI Germany had total control over the economy. If you are contesting this point, there is nothing for me to discuss further with you. They also had total control over the social aspects and any kind of even slight criticism of anything related to their party or the way they rule, was met with severe penalties. They regularly executed people for treason cause of criticism. They fully controlled all media and speech without exceptions. Goes without saying that they disarmed anyone that wasn't directly controlled by their party. This is what the communists did, too. This is why I maintain they are the same evil. It's unbelievable to read that a grown person thinks that companies in NAZI Germany had any kind of freedom themselves. I disagree with that strongly, as anyone knowing anything remotely about Germany 1933-1945 would. I am against any censorship of ideas - ideas should be discussed openly. And I am against government interference in private businesses. That is core position of freedom. If Elon or Trump endanger it, I am against that, loud and clear. This is off topic, but are you going to say the same for what the Democrats did to Zuckerberg? Check the Joe Rogan interview for details. That's just one example, they did much more than this. It doesn't matter how they justify it ("compassion", "empathy", "we protect you from thoughts" etc.)

by cauch 2y ago

rofo1 2y ago

> The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. You have to prove that. You cannot just randomly keep saying it as a starting position because you hope nobody will call that out. He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? > I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), Again, you have to prove this. Be concrete: which ideas precisely? Which "concepts", which "family"?

cauch 2y ago
I had this kind of discussions before but unfortunately it is usually a waste of time, as any consensus amongst experts is waved away. > He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? I think this sentence already is quite telling. For example, Nazi privatized the German industry massively in the 30s, and there was a full wing of the Nazi party defending free markets and low government, with people like for example Walther Funk. They also had the support of big private industry leaders like Friedrich Thyssen. The opposed wing of the party, containing for example Göring, who were advocating for a deeper control by the state on economy in order to build up the army, got the favor of Hitler just before the war. But it does not mean that the Nazi ideology was incompatible with pro free market, low regulations and low government ideals: there were plenty of proper Nazi that were openly defending these ideals. > Which "concepts", which "family"? Well, that is usually where the well is poisoned. For example, AfD in Germany is widely recognised as grounded in Nazi values (the fact that it is the relevant party that attracts the most people who consider themselves as proper Nazi is a very good clue: why the self-recognized Nazi likes this party so much if this party does not share any of their values?). But then, it is easy to just say "na-ah, they have nothing to do with Nazi values", even if it does not correspond to the simple facts. Yet, Musk has recently openly supported this party. There are plenty of political party in Germany and in Europe. He could have not supported any party, the same way he did not in France, in Spain, in Italy, ... or he could have defended values, or he could have defended other parties that are basically pushing for the same economic policies that Musk is probably interested in. It is difficult to understand why Musk is suddenly entering the debate JUST to defend parties with strong nationalistic and xenophobic roots (not used as an insult, it's just a fact of what their policies are) if Musk does not share these values, and these values are indeed the values shared by the Nazi party.
- rofo1 2y ago
  Why can't you discuss sincerely and directly to the point? Why do you start with: "it's a waste of time", "this is telling", "the ExP3rtz said this.." Stop moving the goal posts - I asked for direct examples, you say why didn't he supported parties in France and Spain. NAZI Germany had total control over the economy. If you are contesting this point, there is nothing for me to discuss further with you. They also had total control over the social aspects and any kind of even slight criticism of anything related to their party or the way they rule, was met with severe penalties. They regularly executed people for treason cause of criticism. They fully controlled all media and speech without exceptions. Goes without saying that they disarmed anyone that wasn't directly controlled by their party. This is what the communists did, too. This is why I maintain they are the same evil. It's unbelievable to read that a grown person thinks that companies in NAZI Germany had any kind of freedom themselves. I disagree with that strongly, as anyone knowing anything remotely about Germany 1933-1945 would. I am against any censorship of ideas - ideas should be discussed openly. And I am against government interference in private businesses. That is core position of freedom. If Elon or Trump endanger it, I am against that, loud and clear. This is off topic, but are you going to say the same for what the Democrats did to Zuckerberg? Check the Joe Rogan interview for details. That's just one example, they did much more than this. It doesn't matter how they justify it ("compassion", "empathy", "we protect you from thoughts" etc.)