3 ms·

tangential but doesn't deep state mean a secret group of leadership? does it apply if one is a known public servant

by gunian 2y ago

zmgsabst 2y ago
No — “deep state” can refer to the permanent bureaucracy operating according to their own agenda, in coordination with NGOs, etc. That’s the “unauthorized networks of power” which run independently of democratic control, eg by coordinating non-prosecution of crime despite citizen demands for more criminal prosecutions. > A deep state is a type of government made up of […] unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state
- gunian 2y ago
  does this assume democracy is real? as in the people have a say in the policies so anything to the contrary is a deep state? i've never had a say over my life let alone politics so it's a very foreign concept like having agency
  - zmgsabst 2y ago
    > state's political leadership The political leadership of the US is elected; by definition, any network of power which isn’t beholden to that is “deep state”.
    - gunian 2y ago
      so lobby groups would be considered deep state? or rich people? but how can something be deep state if it has existed since the inception of the aforementioned state. rich people have run the world since humans came into existence is it like a on paper not in reality thing?
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    A democratic form of governance isn't required for a Deep State. Let's rename Deep State as "Under State" for the purposes of this conversation to make it easier to understand. Whatever is the government (the "State", like in "Head of State") you can see is the "Above State". Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings, Governors, Legislatures, Courts, the government that supposedly runs the country, this is the Above State. The Deep State, the Under State, operates under the Above State for their own goals and benefits accountable to noone, the only time they come up to the sunlight is to correct an Above State that dares to harm or defy the Under State. You can almost never see the Under State as a common citizen, but you can probably feel their influence if you pay attention. "Deep" in Deep State hence refers to where they are figuratively located in a given country's political mechanism.
    - gunian 2y ago
      the hard oart for me to grasp is since the day of the theocratic state influence groups have been a thing how can it be a separate thing if it has been a part of the state since its inception?
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        It's separate in the sense that the individuals involved are mostly employed clerks, scribes, middle management, and other such "common" public servants who serve for practically life careers without input from anyone, as far as the Above State side of things go. In the Under State, those same people actually run the government because they are the people who do all the heavy lifting. The Above State with its Presidents and Secretaries and Legislators are all replacable and expendable, they're just an abstraction and obfuscation layer for the Under State to put their desires into action. Occasionally you might catch glimpses of them when they play their hand too strongly, like the Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction(tm) narrative pushed by the Intelligence Community (the Under State) with State Secretary Colin Powell (the Above State) acting as their mouthpiece. On rare occasions a Deep State agent might turn coat and blow the secrets as was the case with Snowden.
        2y ago
boticello 2y ago
'Deep state' could also be called 'permanent state' and means those unelected entities which hold power through changes of government. Victoria Nuland is an example. She worked for six presidents and ten secretaries of state over 30+ years, always promoting the same war agenda. She has worked in concert with her husband Robert Kagan, who has worked as an adviser to several governments and think tanks. These people and organisations are all part of the deep state, aka security state, aka military industrial complex, as forewarned by President Eisenhower on his departure from office.
- gunian 2y ago
  that sounds so cool better that than be starved out and slowly die like me while watching someone else use your SSN so it's like lobbyists? or does rit have to be a specific industry
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  If we take this definition, which is a lot less conspiratorial than the association I've had with the term, it refers to influential longstanding politicians that kept a low profile and out of the media for the most part.

tangential but doesn't deep state mean a secret group of leadership? does it apply if one is a known public servant

by gunian 2y ago

tangential but doesn't deep state mean a secret group of leadership? does it apply if one is a known public servant

No — “deep state” can refer to the permanent bureaucracy operating according to their own agenda, in coordination with NGOs, etc. That’s the “unauthorized networks of power” which run independently of democratic control, eg by coordinating non-prosecution of crime despite citizen demands for more criminal prosecutions. > A deep state is a type of government made up of […] unauthorized networks of power operating independently of a state's political leadership in pursuit of their own agenda and goals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state

gunian 2y ago
does this assume democracy is real? as in the people have a say in the policies so anything to the contrary is a deep state? i've never had a say over my life let alone politics so it's a very foreign concept like having agency
- zmgsabst 2y ago
  > state's political leadership The political leadership of the US is elected; by definition, any network of power which isn’t beholden to that is “deep state”.
  - gunian 2y ago
    so lobby groups would be considered deep state? or rich people? but how can something be deep state if it has existed since the inception of the aforementioned state. rich people have run the world since humans came into existence is it like a on paper not in reality thing?
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  A democratic form of governance isn't required for a Deep State. Let's rename Deep State as "Under State" for the purposes of this conversation to make it easier to understand. Whatever is the government (the "State", like in "Head of State") you can see is the "Above State". Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings, Governors, Legislatures, Courts, the government that supposedly runs the country, this is the Above State. The Deep State, the Under State, operates under the Above State for their own goals and benefits accountable to noone, the only time they come up to the sunlight is to correct an Above State that dares to harm or defy the Under State. You can almost never see the Under State as a common citizen, but you can probably feel their influence if you pay attention. "Deep" in Deep State hence refers to where they are figuratively located in a given country's political mechanism.
  - gunian 2y ago
    the hard oart for me to grasp is since the day of the theocratic state influence groups have been a thing how can it be a separate thing if it has been a part of the state since its inception?
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      It's separate in the sense that the individuals involved are mostly employed clerks, scribes, middle management, and other such "common" public servants who serve for practically life careers without input from anyone, as far as the Above State side of things go. In the Under State, those same people actually run the government because they are the people who do all the heavy lifting. The Above State with its Presidents and Secretaries and Legislators are all replacable and expendable, they're just an abstraction and obfuscation layer for the Under State to put their desires into action. Occasionally you might catch glimpses of them when they play their hand too strongly, like the Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction(tm) narrative pushed by the Intelligence Community (the Under State) with State Secretary Colin Powell (the Above State) acting as their mouthpiece. On rare occasions a Deep State agent might turn coat and blow the secrets as was the case with Snowden.
      - 2y ago

boticello 2y ago

'Deep state' could also be called 'permanent state' and means those unelected entities which hold power through changes of government. Victoria Nuland is an example. She worked for six presidents and ten secretaries of state over 30+ years, always promoting the same war agenda. She has worked in concert with her husband Robert Kagan, who has worked as an adviser to several governments and think tanks. These people and organisations are all part of the deep state, aka security state, aka military industrial complex, as forewarned by President Eisenhower on his departure from office.

gunian 2y ago
that sounds so cool better that than be starved out and slowly die like me while watching someone else use your SSN so it's like lobbyists? or does rit have to be a specific industry
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
If we take this definition, which is a lot less conspiratorial than the association I've had with the term, it refers to influential longstanding politicians that kept a low profile and out of the media for the most part.