8 ms·

A woman is an adult human female, or a person who identifies as such. In other words, there is biological definition. Then there is malleable social terminolog

A woman is an adult human female, or a person who identifies as such. In other words, there is biological definition. Then there is malleable social terminology. We can acknowledge biology while also accommodating who choose to - or need to - identify differently. If we can't accept that, then my next question would be: what do you expect someone who is gender dysphoric to do? What do you believe the appropriate course of action is for someone in that situation? What would you expect or appreciate if you were a person in that situation? The odd thing is that I don't recall pronouns being much of an issue before recent (2016-onward) political tribalism on transgender matters. Transgender people are not new, they existed previously and people by and large seemed to be able to refer to them by their preferred pronouns without all of this digging-in-of-heels around "I WILL REFER TO YOU BY THE PRONOUNS ASSOCIATED WITH YOUR BIOLOGICAL SEX".

countarthur 2y ago
What does "such" mean here? How should I treat someone with body dysmorphia who believes they are 130 kg when they're closer to 50? Should I agree with them and affirm them as fat as they believe they are? Or should I - if it's my place - implore them to go to talking therapy and refuse to be drawn into their self-hating fantasy?
- brandon272 2y ago
  I’ll say three things: 1) Someone’s body dysmorphia is not - generally - affirmed or denied by ordinary everyday passing social interactions. In polite society, you simply don’t comment on someone’s body composition. Gender is an entirely different matter as it is a constant differentiator in day to day life. Also, in my experience, body dysmorphia has nothing to do with other people’s affirmations. We’ve all seen examples of people getting repeated surgeries to change their appearance because they simply cannot see what everyone else is seeing when they look in the mirror. 2) I think in determining “how to handle it” from the perspective of psychotherapy, we should consider what treatment is considered effective. Psychotherapy is simply not effective at changing someone’s gender identity or ameliorating gender dysphoria. The established treatment for gender dysphoria is to align the person’s gender identity and gender expression. To me, this makes sense when applied to your own life. Therapy might be able to help me realize that my perception of the size of my nose is not accurate, but therapy is not going to be effective at changing my gender identity. Do you feel that your gender identity could be changed using Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? 3) Refer back to the questions that I think should be asked if you find it too difficult to accommodate pronouns: >What do you expect someone who is gender dysphoric to do? What do you believe the appropriate course of action is for someone in that situation? What would you expect or appreciate if you were a person in that situation?
  - chlodwig 2y ago
    Psychotherapy is simply not effective at changing someone’s gender identity or ameliorating gender dysphoria. The established treatment for gender dysphoria is to align the person’s gender identity and gender expression. Can you find a randomized controlled study where the "affirmative" approach of aligning gender expression with identity has been compared to a "reparative" approach of aligning identity with biology? I have read a lot of studies on this and what you are saying simply is not backed by the evidence. Whenever I read a study that has been referenced on NPR or such, I read the details and the details do not support what the people citing the study say it supports. In all other cases, if someone's mental conception of themselves was not aligned with the biological reality of their self, we would say the default is that the person should try to adjust their mental conception. A treatment that involved all of society changing, or even more extreme -- actual removal of body parts -- would need to pass a very high burden of experimental evidence. From what I have read, that burden of proof has not ever been close to being met. There are no studies that say that aligning gender expression works better than helping the person cope with or get over their dysphoria. If I have missed such a study, I would like to read it. Do you feel that your gender identity could be changed using Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? I do not have a gender identity and I do not have a gender. I a sex and I have an identity as a sexed being. I have a brain that has developed under the influence of testosterone, I have the knowledge of having a penis, I have the knowledge that society sees me as a male and penis-haver and all that entails. I have the knowledge that if I used a woman's locker room and exposed my penis, women would freak out, and so I do not do that. Etc. etc. I wear the clothes that I do because that is what society expects of me. There are all sorts of clothes and outfits from other cultures that I prefer aesthetically but I don't wear because they do not align with the norms of my current culture. It's actually really difficult for me to understand how a person's fundamental well-being is intrinsically and immalleably tied to names and clothing. Of all the possible forms of clothing humans have worn in the last ten-thousand years, only a tiny sliver of those clothing are socially acceptable for me to wear. And yet we all deal with that. If someone were to intentionally call me the wrong name, while everyone else gets called the name they have asked to be called, that would bother me, but only because that is a power move that singles me out. If I were to, say, join a fraternity, where everyone had to have a name assigned to them, that would not bother me, and I would be fine being called that name while hanging out in the fraternity. If someone were to call me a "woman" I would be upset because it is the reality of my biology that I am a man. Furthermore, saying you are a "woman" is usually saying, "You lack the positive qualities we usually associate with being a man -- you are weak, you are cowardly, you are whiny, etc."

countarthur 2y ago

What does "such" mean here? How should I treat someone with body dysmorphia who believes they are 130 kg when they're closer to 50? Should I agree with them and affirm them as fat as they believe they are? Or should I - if it's my place - implore them to go to talking therapy and refuse to be drawn into their self-hating fantasy?

brandon272 2y ago
I’ll say three things: 1) Someone’s body dysmorphia is not - generally - affirmed or denied by ordinary everyday passing social interactions. In polite society, you simply don’t comment on someone’s body composition. Gender is an entirely different matter as it is a constant differentiator in day to day life. Also, in my experience, body dysmorphia has nothing to do with other people’s affirmations. We’ve all seen examples of people getting repeated surgeries to change their appearance because they simply cannot see what everyone else is seeing when they look in the mirror. 2) I think in determining “how to handle it” from the perspective of psychotherapy, we should consider what treatment is considered effective. Psychotherapy is simply not effective at changing someone’s gender identity or ameliorating gender dysphoria. The established treatment for gender dysphoria is to align the person’s gender identity and gender expression. To me, this makes sense when applied to your own life. Therapy might be able to help me realize that my perception of the size of my nose is not accurate, but therapy is not going to be effective at changing my gender identity. Do you feel that your gender identity could be changed using Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? 3) Refer back to the questions that I think should be asked if you find it too difficult to accommodate pronouns: >What do you expect someone who is gender dysphoric to do? What do you believe the appropriate course of action is for someone in that situation? What would you expect or appreciate if you were a person in that situation?
- chlodwig 2y ago
  Psychotherapy is simply not effective at changing someone’s gender identity or ameliorating gender dysphoria. The established treatment for gender dysphoria is to align the person’s gender identity and gender expression. Can you find a randomized controlled study where the "affirmative" approach of aligning gender expression with identity has been compared to a "reparative" approach of aligning identity with biology? I have read a lot of studies on this and what you are saying simply is not backed by the evidence. Whenever I read a study that has been referenced on NPR or such, I read the details and the details do not support what the people citing the study say it supports. In all other cases, if someone's mental conception of themselves was not aligned with the biological reality of their self, we would say the default is that the person should try to adjust their mental conception. A treatment that involved all of society changing, or even more extreme -- actual removal of body parts -- would need to pass a very high burden of experimental evidence. From what I have read, that burden of proof has not ever been close to being met. There are no studies that say that aligning gender expression works better than helping the person cope with or get over their dysphoria. If I have missed such a study, I would like to read it. Do you feel that your gender identity could be changed using Cognitive Behavioural Therapy? I do not have a gender identity and I do not have a gender. I a sex and I have an identity as a sexed being. I have a brain that has developed under the influence of testosterone, I have the knowledge of having a penis, I have the knowledge that society sees me as a male and penis-haver and all that entails. I have the knowledge that if I used a woman's locker room and exposed my penis, women would freak out, and so I do not do that. Etc. etc. I wear the clothes that I do because that is what society expects of me. There are all sorts of clothes and outfits from other cultures that I prefer aesthetically but I don't wear because they do not align with the norms of my current culture. It's actually really difficult for me to understand how a person's fundamental well-being is intrinsically and immalleably tied to names and clothing. Of all the possible forms of clothing humans have worn in the last ten-thousand years, only a tiny sliver of those clothing are socially acceptable for me to wear. And yet we all deal with that. If someone were to intentionally call me the wrong name, while everyone else gets called the name they have asked to be called, that would bother me, but only because that is a power move that singles me out. If I were to, say, join a fraternity, where everyone had to have a name assigned to them, that would not bother me, and I would be fine being called that name while hanging out in the fraternity. If someone were to call me a "woman" I would be upset because it is the reality of my biology that I am a man. Furthermore, saying you are a "woman" is usually saying, "You lack the positive qualities we usually associate with being a man -- you are weak, you are cowardly, you are whiny, etc."