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> someone forcing me to pretend they're a different gender What is it specifically which you don't want to do? Use their preferred pronoun? In this scenario,

> someone forcing me to pretend they're a different gender What is it specifically which you don't want to do? Use their preferred pronoun? In this scenario, who is forcing you and how?

next_xibalba 2y ago
Many examples of people losing jobs, becoming the object of online mobs, etc for refusing to use preferred pronouns. Men participating in women’s sports. Men entering women’s spaces like locker rooms and bath rooms. Men imprisoned alongside women, with predictably horrible results. We can treat trans people with compassion, but they are not entitled to change our culture and trample common sense without slow, careful examination. Now that we’re returning to sanity on that front, the data aren’t looking very good.
- ModernMech 2y ago
  Legitimate question, according to you, this person should be going into the woman's room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_An... How do you feel about that?
  - next_xibalba 2y ago
    You seem to have ignored that all my examples were of biological men entering women's spaces and activities. A biological female entering men's spaces and activities is far, far less problematic. I for one would have no problem with that person entering a men's restroom or locker room. But I think it's not unreasonable for others to object. I think the pertinent question is, should a person who made the affirmative choice to transition their body via surgery, hormones, etc. have their preferences supersede those of others who were not involved in that choice? This question is a corollary of a deeper question, which is: should a person who insists that material, shared reality is incorrect have the right to force others to participate in their delusion? Should a schizophrenic experiencing visual hallucinations have the right to reorder society in order to accommodate their delusion? The answer is obviously "no". So why then do trans-people have the special right, in the minds of some, to reorder our language, customs, and culture to accommodate their delusions? So, returning to your question, my answer would be, either Buck Angel should use a unisex restroom, or, if none is available, go elsewhere to find one. Here is a sample of what I think are better questions to ask: Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [1] Should these biological males be allowed to compete in women's cycling? [2] Should this man have been imprisoned with women? [3] Should this biological male have been given use of the girls' restroom at his high school? [4] Should this biological male have been given use of womens' restroom? [5] Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [6] Should this biological male have been given access to the girls locker room at his high school? [7] [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 [2] https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-silver-and-bronze-at-womens-competition/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-... [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-transgender-woman-raped-female-prisoner-at-rikers-lawsuit-says/5067904/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-tran... [4] https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgen... [5] https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicte... [6] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 [7] https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed-genitalia-to-freshman-girls-in-locker-room-shower-school-district-faces-legal-scrutiny https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed...
    - ModernMech 2y ago
      > So, returning to your question, my answer would be, either Buck Angel should use a unisex restroom, or, if none is available, go elsewhere to find one. So you are trading one form of dehumanization for another. I think if you want to implement this policy you need to mandate unisex restrooms. Otherwise you are excluding trans people from public life... but that's the point isn't it? > Should a schizophrenic experiencing visual hallucinations have the right to reorder society in order to accommodate their delusion? The answer is obviously "no". So why then do trans-people have the special right, in the minds of some, to reorder our language, customs, and culture to accommodate their delusions? We routinely set policy based on voices our representatives hear in their heads they believe to be the voice of God. George Bush is quoted saying God told him to invade Iraq. For thousands of years human history and law has been guided based on a bunch of people claiming an invisible sky wizard told them how to order society. Why do the voices in their head rank higher than a trans person's?
      - next_xibalba 2y ago
        Once again, you ignore that all of my examples were of biological men entering women's spaces and activities. > So you are trading one form of dehumanization for another It's not even close to dehumanizing. Concentration camps are dehumanizing. War is dehumanizing. Genocide is dehumanizing. Requiring Angel to use an appropriate restroom is at most an inconvenience (for Angel). Angel wasn't born this way. Angel's decision, motivated by desire and/or delusion, to undergo surgical and chemical alterations was made deliberately and affirmatively. And thus Angel should bear the consequences of those decisions. Angel doesn't have the right to reorder society's customs, culture, and rules as a result of those decisions. (And I would argue these kind of anatomical disfigurement is far more "dehumanizing" than being asked to use a unisex bathroom.) I'll also note that it is telling that you've chosen as the trans exemplar in this discussion a pornographer and fetishist whose behaviors and values are wildly out of line with the mainstream of society. > We routinely set policy based on voices our representatives hear in their heads they believe to be the voice of God Straw man, and also, false. [1] It is obvious that no delusional person has the right to reorder society's customs, culture, and laws. Or are you arguing that we must take all delusional people seriously in order to placate trans-people? ------------- [1] Bush had to follow the rules by going to Congress to make his case for war. The basis of the case presented to Congress was not "the voice of god".
the_clarence 2y ago
Yeah. The answer is always: which one is the agreed default, and which one is community based

> someone forcing me to pretend they're a different gender What is it specifically which you don't want to do? Use their preferred pronoun? In this scenario, who is forcing you and how?

next_xibalba 2y ago

Many examples of people losing jobs, becoming the object of online mobs, etc for refusing to use preferred pronouns. Men participating in women’s sports. Men entering women’s spaces like locker rooms and bath rooms. Men imprisoned alongside women, with predictably horrible results. We can treat trans people with compassion, but they are not entitled to change our culture and trample common sense without slow, careful examination. Now that we’re returning to sanity on that front, the data aren’t looking very good.

ModernMech 2y ago
Legitimate question, according to you, this person should be going into the woman's room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_An... How do you feel about that?
- next_xibalba 2y ago
  You seem to have ignored that all my examples were of biological men entering women's spaces and activities. A biological female entering men's spaces and activities is far, far less problematic. I for one would have no problem with that person entering a men's restroom or locker room. But I think it's not unreasonable for others to object. I think the pertinent question is, should a person who made the affirmative choice to transition their body via surgery, hormones, etc. have their preferences supersede those of others who were not involved in that choice? This question is a corollary of a deeper question, which is: should a person who insists that material, shared reality is incorrect have the right to force others to participate in their delusion? Should a schizophrenic experiencing visual hallucinations have the right to reorder society in order to accommodate their delusion? The answer is obviously "no". So why then do trans-people have the special right, in the minds of some, to reorder our language, customs, and culture to accommodate their delusions? So, returning to your question, my answer would be, either Buck Angel should use a unisex restroom, or, if none is available, go elsewhere to find one. Here is a sample of what I think are better questions to ask: Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [1] Should these biological males be allowed to compete in women's cycling? [2] Should this man have been imprisoned with women? [3] Should this biological male have been given use of the girls' restroom at his high school? [4] Should this biological male have been given use of womens' restroom? [5] Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [6] Should this biological male have been given access to the girls locker room at his high school? [7] [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 [2] https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-silver-and-bronze-at-womens-competition/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-... [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-transgender-woman-raped-female-prisoner-at-rikers-lawsuit-says/5067904/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-tran... [4] https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgen... [5] https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicte... [6] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 [7] https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed-genitalia-to-freshman-girls-in-locker-room-shower-school-district-faces-legal-scrutiny https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed...
  - ModernMech 2y ago
    > So, returning to your question, my answer would be, either Buck Angel should use a unisex restroom, or, if none is available, go elsewhere to find one. So you are trading one form of dehumanization for another. I think if you want to implement this policy you need to mandate unisex restrooms. Otherwise you are excluding trans people from public life... but that's the point isn't it? > Should a schizophrenic experiencing visual hallucinations have the right to reorder society in order to accommodate their delusion? The answer is obviously "no". So why then do trans-people have the special right, in the minds of some, to reorder our language, customs, and culture to accommodate their delusions? We routinely set policy based on voices our representatives hear in their heads they believe to be the voice of God. George Bush is quoted saying God told him to invade Iraq. For thousands of years human history and law has been guided based on a bunch of people claiming an invisible sky wizard told them how to order society. Why do the voices in their head rank higher than a trans person's?
    - next_xibalba 2y ago
      Once again, you ignore that all of my examples were of biological men entering women's spaces and activities. > So you are trading one form of dehumanization for another It's not even close to dehumanizing. Concentration camps are dehumanizing. War is dehumanizing. Genocide is dehumanizing. Requiring Angel to use an appropriate restroom is at most an inconvenience (for Angel). Angel wasn't born this way. Angel's decision, motivated by desire and/or delusion, to undergo surgical and chemical alterations was made deliberately and affirmatively. And thus Angel should bear the consequences of those decisions. Angel doesn't have the right to reorder society's customs, culture, and rules as a result of those decisions. (And I would argue these kind of anatomical disfigurement is far more "dehumanizing" than being asked to use a unisex bathroom.) I'll also note that it is telling that you've chosen as the trans exemplar in this discussion a pornographer and fetishist whose behaviors and values are wildly out of line with the mainstream of society. > We routinely set policy based on voices our representatives hear in their heads they believe to be the voice of God Straw man, and also, false. [1] It is obvious that no delusional person has the right to reorder society's customs, culture, and laws. Or are you arguing that we must take all delusional people seriously in order to placate trans-people? ------------- [1] Bush had to follow the rules by going to Congress to make his case for war. The basis of the case presented to Congress was not "the voice of god".

the_clarence 2y ago

Yeah. The answer is always: which one is the agreed default, and which one is community based