4 ms·

My current way of thinking about it is that we should tolerate communities that we find weird. People who cross dress are to me as weird as the religious people

My current way of thinking about it is that we should tolerate communities that we find weird. People who cross dress are to me as weird as the religious people or the overly enthusiastic magic the gathering players. Should I hate them or discriminate against them? No. Should I let them force their community rituals on me? No as well. I don't like someone telling me "God bless you" as much as someone forcing me to pretend they're a different gender. Wokism was a movement against discrimination, bullies, and such. Not a movement to force you to adhere to specific communities rules

metabagel 2y ago
> someone forcing me to pretend they're a different gender What is it specifically which you don't want to do? Use their preferred pronoun? In this scenario, who is forcing you and how?
- next_xibalba 2y ago
  Many examples of people losing jobs, becoming the object of online mobs, etc for refusing to use preferred pronouns. Men participating in women’s sports. Men entering women’s spaces like locker rooms and bath rooms. Men imprisoned alongside women, with predictably horrible results. We can treat trans people with compassion, but they are not entitled to change our culture and trample common sense without slow, careful examination. Now that we’re returning to sanity on that front, the data aren’t looking very good.
  - ModernMech 2y ago
    Legitimate question, according to you, this person should be going into the woman's room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_An... How do you feel about that?
    - next_xibalba 2y ago
      You seem to have ignored that all my examples were of biological men entering women's spaces and activities. A biological female entering men's spaces and activities is far, far less problematic. I for one would have no problem with that person entering a men's restroom or locker room. But I think it's not unreasonable for others to object. I think the pertinent question is, should a person who made the affirmative choice to transition their body via surgery, hormones, etc. have their preferences supersede those of others who were not involved in that choice? This question is a corollary of a deeper question, which is: should a person who insists that material, shared reality is incorrect have the right to force others to participate in their delusion? Should a schizophrenic experiencing visual hallucinations have the right to reorder society in order to accommodate their delusion? The answer is obviously "no". So why then do trans-people have the special right, in the minds of some, to reorder our language, customs, and culture to accommodate their delusions? So, returning to your question, my answer would be, either Buck Angel should use a unisex restroom, or, if none is available, go elsewhere to find one. Here is a sample of what I think are better questions to ask: Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [1] Should these biological males be allowed to compete in women's cycling? [2] Should this man have been imprisoned with women? [3] Should this biological male have been given use of the girls' restroom at his high school? [4] Should this biological male have been given use of womens' restroom? [5] Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [6] Should this biological male have been given access to the girls locker room at his high school? [7] [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 [2] https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-silver-and-bronze-at-womens-competition/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-... [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-transgender-woman-raped-female-prisoner-at-rikers-lawsuit-says/5067904/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-tran... [4] https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgen... [5] https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicte... [6] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 [7] https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed-genitalia-to-freshman-girls-in-locker-room-shower-school-district-faces-legal-scrutiny https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed...
- the_clarence 2y ago
  Yeah. The answer is always: which one is the agreed default, and which one is community based

metabagel 2y ago

> someone forcing me to pretend they're a different gender What is it specifically which you don't want to do? Use their preferred pronoun? In this scenario, who is forcing you and how?

next_xibalba 2y ago
Many examples of people losing jobs, becoming the object of online mobs, etc for refusing to use preferred pronouns. Men participating in women’s sports. Men entering women’s spaces like locker rooms and bath rooms. Men imprisoned alongside women, with predictably horrible results. We can treat trans people with compassion, but they are not entitled to change our culture and trample common sense without slow, careful examination. Now that we’re returning to sanity on that front, the data aren’t looking very good.
- ModernMech 2y ago
  Legitimate question, according to you, this person should be going into the woman's room: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_Angel_Headshot.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel#/media/File:Buck_An... How do you feel about that?
  - next_xibalba 2y ago
    You seem to have ignored that all my examples were of biological men entering women's spaces and activities. A biological female entering men's spaces and activities is far, far less problematic. I for one would have no problem with that person entering a men's restroom or locker room. But I think it's not unreasonable for others to object. I think the pertinent question is, should a person who made the affirmative choice to transition their body via surgery, hormones, etc. have their preferences supersede those of others who were not involved in that choice? This question is a corollary of a deeper question, which is: should a person who insists that material, shared reality is incorrect have the right to force others to participate in their delusion? Should a schizophrenic experiencing visual hallucinations have the right to reorder society in order to accommodate their delusion? The answer is obviously "no". So why then do trans-people have the special right, in the minds of some, to reorder our language, customs, and culture to accommodate their delusions? So, returning to your question, my answer would be, either Buck Angel should use a unisex restroom, or, if none is available, go elsewhere to find one. Here is a sample of what I think are better questions to ask: Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [1] Should these biological males be allowed to compete in women's cycling? [2] Should this man have been imprisoned with women? [3] Should this biological male have been given use of the girls' restroom at his high school? [4] Should this biological male have been given use of womens' restroom? [5] Should this person be imprisoned alongside biological women? [6] Should this biological male have been given access to the girls locker room at his high school? [7] [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-67613441 [2] https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-silver-and-bronze-at-womens-competition/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/male-cyclists-take-gold-... [3] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-transgender-woman-raped-female-prisoner-at-rikers-lawsuit-says/5067904/ https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-tran... [4] https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgender-bathroom-sexual-assault-a26168568cc20c2aa6cec9bef50e7c3f https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virginia-lawsuit-transgen... [5] https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicted-of-sexually-assaulting-10-year-old-girl-in-bathroom https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/transgender-woman-convicte... [6] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-45825838 [7] https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed-genitalia-to-freshman-girls-in-locker-room-shower-school-district-faces-legal-scrutiny https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/after-trans-woman-exposed...
the_clarence 2y ago
Yeah. The answer is always: which one is the agreed default, and which one is community based