3 ms·

Actually scientist are of strong belief that mind is deterministic (it's a hypothesis so far, but all signs to point to it). However if people believe they are

by Ygg2 14y ago

Actually scientist are of strong belief that mind is deterministic (it's a hypothesis so far, but all signs to point to it). However if people believe they are slaves to determinism then they act worse, since their actions are not their fault. Overall society on large must believe that they posses the freedom in order to make life bearable. Other way to look on that is this. If _you_ are not responsible for your actions than _me_ will punish you since neither of us is responsible for their actions.

paraschopra 14y ago
It's odd to say society must believe that they possess a freedom which isn't really there. Of course, in punishing me, you are not responsible, but by exposing this idea, I do hope your mindset will change. But if you punish me, I can't blame you. I see ideas as agents that change trajectories of free will.
- nessus42 14y ago
  The world is almost certainly deterministic. Either that, or the cosmos is rolling dice in quantum mechanics wave collapse. It's hard to see how any sort of mystical "free will" can come out of a random number generator. We are all just very complex computer programs running on meat machines. These revelations make the common mystical use of the term "free will" rather meaningless. What could it possibly amount to? That you have a different mind living in your "soul" that makes your real decisions for you, while your physical brain is just some sort of fancy transceiver? That's rather doubtful, if you ask me. On the other hand, the notion of "free will" that no one is holding a gun to your head still stands. On the philosophical issue of whom to hold responsible for intelligent computer programs gone terribly wrong, I'm not sure that there is any real answer to that question. What should be clear, however, is that society has a right to defend itself against such rogue entities and to disincentivize such entities from doing bad things. What should also be clear, however, is that there is no moral good to increasing the suffering of people (i.e., intelligent programs) just because they happened to get saddled with a bum program.
zyb09 14y ago
don't quantum mechanics stand contrary to determinism? As far as I know there's a certain amount of unpredictably with particles in superposition.
- nessus42 14y ago
  There are both deterministic and non-deterministic interpretations of quantum mechanics. The "Many Worlds" interpretation is deterministic, as all possible outcomes end up happening, albeit in different parallels worlds. Bohm's interpretation is also deterministic, and is experimentally indistinguishable from the Many Worlds interpretation, but only one of the worlds is real. Which one is real is deterministically determined from initial conditions that are impossible to inspect. And even if you could inspect them, the result is chaotic. Other interpretations rely on probabilistic collapse of a "probability wave", but this amounts to nothing more than the cosmos rolling dice. It's hard to fathom how one is supposed to arrive at a mystical "free will" via the rolling of dice.

by Ygg2 14y ago

paraschopra 14y ago

It's odd to say society must believe that they possess a freedom which isn't really there. Of course, in punishing me, you are not responsible, but by exposing this idea, I do hope your mindset will change. But if you punish me, I can't blame you. I see ideas as agents that change trajectories of free will.

nessus42 14y ago
The world is almost certainly deterministic. Either that, or the cosmos is rolling dice in quantum mechanics wave collapse. It's hard to see how any sort of mystical "free will" can come out of a random number generator. We are all just very complex computer programs running on meat machines. These revelations make the common mystical use of the term "free will" rather meaningless. What could it possibly amount to? That you have a different mind living in your "soul" that makes your real decisions for you, while your physical brain is just some sort of fancy transceiver? That's rather doubtful, if you ask me. On the other hand, the notion of "free will" that no one is holding a gun to your head still stands. On the philosophical issue of whom to hold responsible for intelligent computer programs gone terribly wrong, I'm not sure that there is any real answer to that question. What should be clear, however, is that society has a right to defend itself against such rogue entities and to disincentivize such entities from doing bad things. What should also be clear, however, is that there is no moral good to increasing the suffering of people (i.e., intelligent programs) just because they happened to get saddled with a bum program.

zyb09 14y ago

don't quantum mechanics stand contrary to determinism? As far as I know there's a certain amount of unpredictably with particles in superposition.

nessus42 14y ago
There are both deterministic and non-deterministic interpretations of quantum mechanics. The "Many Worlds" interpretation is deterministic, as all possible outcomes end up happening, albeit in different parallels worlds. Bohm's interpretation is also deterministic, and is experimentally indistinguishable from the Many Worlds interpretation, but only one of the worlds is real. Which one is real is deterministically determined from initial conditions that are impossible to inspect. And even if you could inspect them, the result is chaotic. Other interpretations rely on probabilistic collapse of a "probability wave", but this amounts to nothing more than the cosmos rolling dice. It's hard to fathom how one is supposed to arrive at a mystical "free will" via the rolling of dice.