18 ms·

Then be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.

by lokar 2y ago

bigmattystyles 2y ago
Is that so bad if that’s the cost of independence? Go after profiteers ruthlessly however.
- lokar 2y ago
  I think it would be a better system (as an American)
mschild 2y ago
5%+ would likely put Europe ahead of the US in spending on military. Even 3%+ would be such a significant amount of noney that almost noone except the US could compete. That said, its a price we should pay instead of relying on the US as a partner.
- trgn 2y ago
  Us and Israel show what the downstream effects on tech innovation are. It may not be a coincidence
  - megous 2y ago
    There's innovation without having to constantly kill and terrorize your neighbors and provoke wars to test your tech.
    - trgn 2y ago
      no I understand that part, it just seems that at least today, there is a relation between a dynamic tech industry and high military spending. There's some historical evidence too (gps, internet, ...). Europe has a really stagnant tech industry (comparatively speaking), and low military spending. anyway, maybe the relation is spurious, e.g. maybe china is a good counterexample here (?)
      - megous 2y ago
        Europe is quite varied, you'd probably need to look at individual countries and do a more fine grained comparison between those, because they have their own differing policies on both military spending (some just buy gear from outside and may not innovate much) and support for innovation/industry or even educational systems (and where they stand on "sit and listen <-> here's a lot of tools and support and freedom/time to experiment" rigidity scale).
        trgn 2y ago
        Startup scene in Europe is where? Berlin, Amsterdam, London, where else?
        megous 2y ago
        I don't understand the relevance of the question. I thought the therad is about innovation, not "startups" (what's that? american style "supergrowth or you go to trash" VC funded companies?)
microtonal 2y ago
It's so sad that the relationship between allies has come to the point where NATO Article 5 has become a bargaining chip against privacy/market fairness laws (DSA/DMA). I think to a lot of Europeans it feels like Americans have unilaterally ended a friendship. It's true that Europe and Canada need to invest more in defense, but the balance is currently 755 billion USD (US) vs. 430 billion USD (EU) [1]. So it's certainly not like the MAGA rhetoric pretends. The US has the benefit of being a large nuclear power, but for a long time the US preferred being the nuclear protector to avoid too much proliferation on the continent. Another annoying part of the 'they gotta pay up' Trump/MAGA discourse is that it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money. This is not how the NATO agreement works. Countries have to spend 2% of their GDP on defense, but it's not a payment to the US. They could buy Saab Grippens if they wanted to. [1] https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pd...
- NickC25 2y ago
  >it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money Starting to sound like a mob? He's been at this for his whole adult life.
- lokar 2y ago
  I certainly find the trump rhetoric distasteful and counterproductive. But I really think the EU would be better off with the ability to defend themselves. Depending on NATO article 5 always introduces a tempting ambiguity, which can lead to miscalculation.
  - microtonal 2y ago
    I agree. Not only does it open the chance of miscalculation, but also makes Europe vulnerable to this kind of blackmailing. It is still sad though. At any rate, it fits the pattern. During his first term he was also more interested in cozying up with autocrats.
    - openrisk 2y ago
Chris2048 2y ago
> or become a Russian satellite I'm sceptical Russia has this kind of power anymore, beyond being a proxy for China..
yapyap 2y ago
be a US sattelite, be a Russian sattelite. Honestly it feels like the US is also becoming a Russian sattelite with Trump & Elon having quiet gettogethers w Putin.
impossiblefork 2y ago
We're 3x as many as the Russians. There's no need for that, unless we need to have a war for some other reason. 5% is what Sweden needed in the 1980s to defend itself from the whole Soviet Union + Warsaw Pact, without the EU and without NATO.
- mrcnkoba 2y ago
  Never heard of the war between Sweden and Warsaw Pact in the 1980s. Maybe 5% is why it never happened.
FpUser 2y ago
FUD
skrebbel 2y ago
Fwiw this is kinda what I meant with "for the EU to get their shit together"

Then be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.

by lokar 2y ago

Then be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.

bigmattystyles 2y ago

Is that so bad if that’s the cost of independence? Go after profiteers ruthlessly however.

lokar 2y ago
I think it would be a better system (as an American)

mschild 2y ago

5%+ would likely put Europe ahead of the US in spending on military. Even 3%+ would be such a significant amount of noney that almost noone except the US could compete. That said, its a price we should pay instead of relying on the US as a partner.

trgn 2y ago
Us and Israel show what the downstream effects on tech innovation are. It may not be a coincidence
- megous 2y ago
  There's innovation without having to constantly kill and terrorize your neighbors and provoke wars to test your tech.
  - trgn 2y ago
    no I understand that part, it just seems that at least today, there is a relation between a dynamic tech industry and high military spending. There's some historical evidence too (gps, internet, ...). Europe has a really stagnant tech industry (comparatively speaking), and low military spending. anyway, maybe the relation is spurious, e.g. maybe china is a good counterexample here (?)
    - megous 2y ago
      Europe is quite varied, you'd probably need to look at individual countries and do a more fine grained comparison between those, because they have their own differing policies on both military spending (some just buy gear from outside and may not innovate much) and support for innovation/industry or even educational systems (and where they stand on "sit and listen <-> here's a lot of tools and support and freedom/time to experiment" rigidity scale).
      - trgn 2y ago
        Startup scene in Europe is where? Berlin, Amsterdam, London, where else?
        megous 2y ago
        I don't understand the relevance of the question. I thought the therad is about innovation, not "startups" (what's that? american style "supergrowth or you go to trash" VC funded companies?)

microtonal 2y ago

It's so sad that the relationship between allies has come to the point where NATO Article 5 has become a bargaining chip against privacy/market fairness laws (DSA/DMA). I think to a lot of Europeans it feels like Americans have unilaterally ended a friendship. It's true that Europe and Canada need to invest more in defense, but the balance is currently 755 billion USD (US) vs. 430 billion USD (EU) [1]. So it's certainly not like the MAGA rhetoric pretends. The US has the benefit of being a large nuclear power, but for a long time the US preferred being the nuclear protector to avoid too much proliferation on the continent. Another annoying part of the 'they gotta pay up' Trump/MAGA discourse is that it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money. This is not how the NATO agreement works. Countries have to spend 2% of their GDP on defense, but it's not a payment to the US. They could buy Saab Grippens if they wanted to. [1] https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pd...

NickC25 2y ago
>it's starting to sound like a mob wanting protection money Starting to sound like a mob? He's been at this for his whole adult life.
lokar 2y ago
I certainly find the trump rhetoric distasteful and counterproductive. But I really think the EU would be better off with the ability to defend themselves. Depending on NATO article 5 always introduces a tempting ambiguity, which can lead to miscalculation.
- microtonal 2y ago
  I agree. Not only does it open the chance of miscalculation, but also makes Europe vulnerable to this kind of blackmailing. It is still sad though. At any rate, it fits the pattern. During his first term he was also more interested in cozying up with autocrats.
  - openrisk 2y ago

Chris2048 2y ago

> or become a Russian satellite I'm sceptical Russia has this kind of power anymore, beyond being a proxy for China..

yapyap 2y ago

be a US sattelite, be a Russian sattelite. Honestly it feels like the US is also becoming a Russian sattelite with Trump & Elon having quiet gettogethers w Putin.

impossiblefork 2y ago

We're 3x as many as the Russians. There's no need for that, unless we need to have a war for some other reason. 5% is what Sweden needed in the 1980s to defend itself from the whole Soviet Union + Warsaw Pact, without the EU and without NATO.

mrcnkoba 2y ago
Never heard of the war between Sweden and Warsaw Pact in the 1980s. Maybe 5% is why it never happened.

FpUser 2y ago

FUD

skrebbel 2y ago

Fwiw this is kinda what I meant with "for the EU to get their shit together"