4 ms·

The article doesn't mention this: systemd is not well written software, and far from behaving robust and consistently. Take some time, look through the currentl

The article doesn't mention this: systemd is not well written software, and far from behaving robust and consistently. Take some time, look through the currently open issues on Github, see for yourself whether you consider this stable software. Machine hanging indefinitely during poweroff/reboot is one of the classics. I'm not saying that good software has no bugs, but the kind of bugs reported tells much about the software. [1] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues

klysm 2y ago
I’ll take it over bash scripts any day. I’ve never had a single issue in production for years
- blueflow 2y ago
  You didn't have any issues, so you never had the pain of diagnosing some systemd-related problem.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    systemd fighting against other daemons without any warnings and error messages is my absolute favorite. Not being able to list which components are enabled and not being able to format output of "list-units" for easy machine readability are close seconds. I mean, if OpenStack guys has figured this out, self-proclaimed demigods of Linux can do that, amirite?
    - rascul 2y ago
      > not being able to format output of "list-units" for easy machine readability are close seconds. Seems like 'systemctl -o json list-units' might be what you want.
      - blueflow 2y ago
        As of systemd 252, this is undocumented functionality. -o is only specified for systemctl status.
        rascul 2y ago
        I noticed that, tried it anyway, and it worked. Would probably be helpful if it was properly documented.
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        While it's noted that it's undocumented behavior (-o is non-existent in systemctl man page), so it might go away tomorrow, it's not a bad start. However what I want is more like systemctl -o json list-units --type=service --state=active I can add --terse for single line output to prevent adding jq to the pipe for processing that JSON. Maybe instead of writing a bit better code and actually documenting these options, they can just absorb jq as jsonctl, who knows. Sorry, I kinda get angry when I encounter shenanigans like undocumented functionality, or hostile-replacing a daemon because they felt like replacing something really working well for the last 20ish years, just for fun, you know.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > You didn't have any issues, so you never had the pain of diagnosing some systemd-related problem. My personal pet peeve is doing a `ps -elfH` and seeing systemd-ask-password at the leaf of a process tree just sitting there: * https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/systemd-ask-password.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst... Why are asking for a password? Which password? For what service? Can I get the prompt for it somehow? Can I echo something to? I've had this happen in the past with mysqld, and I had to resort to running /usr/sbin/mysqld from the CLI manually to get any kind of error or logging messages.
- regularfry 2y ago
  This comment is always made in every single systemd thread, and it is and always was a false dichotomy.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    Absolutely true. As a counterpoint, we had Bash scripts for years in production, and never had any problems, either.
  - klysm 2y ago
    Yeah it is, but I’m not aware of a good alternative that is widely used and supported
otabdeveloper4 2y ago
There isn't a single thing in the Linux ecosystem that is "stable". (And that's a good thing.)
- throw0101b 2y ago
  > (And that's a good thing.) As someone who does not want to be paged at 03:14, I disagree.
  - otabdeveloper4 2y ago
    "Stability" has nothing to do with reliability. "Stability" is the ossification of worst practices due to corporate dysfunction. Some of the least reliable systems are also 100 percent "stable".
- blueflow 2y ago
  How can you say its a good thing? I have 6 Laptops that cannot boot 6.0ff Linux due to kernel regressions. I'm running out of devices that can run Linux without crashing.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  Isn't this quite the hot take? The situation is not that bad, at least in stable distributions like Debian. Systemd is taking over as an interface. It's almost to Linux what Win32 is to NTDLL. Linux is still there, but more and more you can't code against the kernel, you have to code against systemd.
  - otabdeveloper4 2y ago
    Yes, and? I'm supposed to be outraged at a good thing finally happening to Linux?
    - AstralStorm 2y ago
      Where's the good thing? In making POSIX even more of a joke? In providing low quality "chase this API" target? In enforced obsolescence? Systemd does not provide stable APIs. For that, a standarization process is required and has not been followed. Or at least a conservative approach to API and ABI, like Linux kernel itself has. The whole thing is following a big ball of mud approach that has previously resulted in Linux distros having up to 5 sound APIs active at the same time. One of which is Lennart's work and getting obsolesced. (PulseAudio, much better written than systemd, by Pipewire. Because it cannot handle video and realtime.) To achieve its aims it has to be actually good, well written, have a working minimal core feature set and be version compatible. So far this has not happened for init.
MarkusWandel 2y ago
> Machine hanging indefinitely during poweroff/reboot ... I'm one of those troglodytes who still starts things from /etc/rc.d/rc.local Since this is not the systemd way systemd sometimes decides that it can't terminate these on shutdown. And the timeout for shutting down rc.local stuff is infinite. This causes the occasional hang until hard reset. I can manually change the timeout to something else, but any update tends to put back the infinite timeout. I suppose I should learn how to do it the systemd way.
- eth0up 2y ago
  Fellow Troglodyte, I have booted single user for the last decade, using startx to initiate the desktop environment. In Debian, it always worked, allowing me to observe the console output prior and address anything unusual before going gui. Switching to OpenSuse, the behavior is different, but I got start-xfce4 to work. Any obvious reasons this is different in OpenSuse? I've read that startx is deprecated, well, that and some interesting stuff about flat earth. Oh, and a genuine systemd peeve; the infamous ctrl-alt-del burst nonsense, where rapid succession (x7) reboots the system, even with the screen locked (unless with physlock).
  - blueflow 2y ago
    Yes, plain startx has stopped working from upstream defaults. I think it was related to Xorg now having to talk to seatd (or alternatives) to get access to the input/video devices. In Debian it still works because Debian is slow with updates, but time is running.
    - eth0up 2y ago
      I'll justify asking here because the thread is dead, it seems, probably the "2018". Is there a clean, new method of configuring a persistent boot to cli? A link will do if an explanation is too much.
  - rascul 2y ago
    The startx thing is mentioned (with a fix) in the release notes for 11.4 which I presume is when openSUSE made the change: https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i586/openSUSE/11.4/index.html#06 https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i586/openSUSE/11.4/index.h...
112233 2y ago
Great, a public bug tracker!</s> If seriously, can someone explain to me the difference in attitude towards systemd and linux kernel? Almost all arguments against systemd stay valid, when applied to linux kernel, but I don't recall people campaining for decades to delete Linus and replace linux with Hurd or Minix3. Is it a political thing? A cultural thing?
- blueflow 2y ago
  The Linux kernel is much stricter about hacky patches and regressions. This has led to beef between the kernel and system developers in the past. The famous "I'm f*cking tired of your code" was directed at a systemd developer. While searching through the systemd issues, i noticed various form of that issue (systemd spamming logs) still persist. And Lennart doing their "you are holding it wrong"... nothing has changed since Linus' rant.
  - 112233 2y ago
    Approach to the project maintenance really seems to be a significant difference, thank you. It would not account for most of the early attacks (when systemd was not adopted so wildly yet), nor the types of arguments ("unix philosophy", or "corporate takeover" like in this article) I mean, Linus is not known for mincing words or avoiding beef either. Is the style of personality (Linus/Lennart) at play? I mean, this is some doctorate degree on internet sociology level of beef here.
    - blueflow 2y ago
      When systemd broke tmux (which isn't a Linux project, but ported from OpenBSD) and instead of reverting or fixing their own bug, systemd devs went to the OpenBSD folks and asked them to work around the bug that they caused themselves. This is ragebait-level insolence: https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428 https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428
- johnea 2y ago
  The criticisms also apply to the linux kernel. The article even mentions the elimination of seats on the linux foundation's board for "community" members, and the increase in seats allocated to corporate members. The linux foundation today is pretty much completely controlled by corporate interests. Linus is still the benevolent dictator, but as time passes, and Linus finally retires, unless something changes the future of control of the linux kernel will go farther and farther from it's roots as a user/contributor project in the "free software" spirit. To provide a definition of the primary difference between "open source" and "free software" development models: Free software development is primarily by a group of users, for themselves and other users. Open source is a business model of using community s/w development for a project that is ultimately intended to be sold for profit. One is development of software by a group of users for their use, the other is commercial product development. That's not to say that product development is inherently evil, but it does have very different objectives compared to s/w developed by users for their own use. Linux started as a free software project where contributors were users, and has morphed into an open source product development project.

klysm 2y ago

I’ll take it over bash scripts any day. I’ve never had a single issue in production for years

blueflow 2y ago
You didn't have any issues, so you never had the pain of diagnosing some systemd-related problem.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  systemd fighting against other daemons without any warnings and error messages is my absolute favorite. Not being able to list which components are enabled and not being able to format output of "list-units" for easy machine readability are close seconds. I mean, if OpenStack guys has figured this out, self-proclaimed demigods of Linux can do that, amirite?
  - rascul 2y ago
    > not being able to format output of "list-units" for easy machine readability are close seconds. Seems like 'systemctl -o json list-units' might be what you want.
    - blueflow 2y ago
      As of systemd 252, this is undocumented functionality. -o is only specified for systemctl status.
      - rascul 2y ago
        I noticed that, tried it anyway, and it worked. Would probably be helpful if it was properly documented.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      While it's noted that it's undocumented behavior (-o is non-existent in systemctl man page), so it might go away tomorrow, it's not a bad start. However what I want is more like systemctl -o json list-units --type=service --state=active I can add --terse for single line output to prevent adding jq to the pipe for processing that JSON. Maybe instead of writing a bit better code and actually documenting these options, they can just absorb jq as jsonctl, who knows. Sorry, I kinda get angry when I encounter shenanigans like undocumented functionality, or hostile-replacing a daemon because they felt like replacing something really working well for the last 20ish years, just for fun, you know.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > You didn't have any issues, so you never had the pain of diagnosing some systemd-related problem. My personal pet peeve is doing a `ps -elfH` and seeing systemd-ask-password at the leaf of a process tree just sitting there: * https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/systemd-ask-password.html https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/latest/syst... Why are asking for a password? Which password? For what service? Can I get the prompt for it somehow? Can I echo something to? I've had this happen in the past with mysqld, and I had to resort to running /usr/sbin/mysqld from the CLI manually to get any kind of error or logging messages.
regularfry 2y ago
This comment is always made in every single systemd thread, and it is and always was a false dichotomy.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Absolutely true. As a counterpoint, we had Bash scripts for years in production, and never had any problems, either.
- klysm 2y ago
  Yeah it is, but I’m not aware of a good alternative that is widely used and supported

otabdeveloper4 2y ago

There isn't a single thing in the Linux ecosystem that is "stable". (And that's a good thing.)

throw0101b 2y ago
> (And that's a good thing.) As someone who does not want to be paged at 03:14, I disagree.
- otabdeveloper4 2y ago
  "Stability" has nothing to do with reliability. "Stability" is the ossification of worst practices due to corporate dysfunction. Some of the least reliable systems are also 100 percent "stable".
blueflow 2y ago
How can you say its a good thing? I have 6 Laptops that cannot boot 6.0ff Linux due to kernel regressions. I'm running out of devices that can run Linux without crashing.
actionfromafar 2y ago
Isn't this quite the hot take? The situation is not that bad, at least in stable distributions like Debian. Systemd is taking over as an interface. It's almost to Linux what Win32 is to NTDLL. Linux is still there, but more and more you can't code against the kernel, you have to code against systemd.
- otabdeveloper4 2y ago
  Yes, and? I'm supposed to be outraged at a good thing finally happening to Linux?
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    Where's the good thing? In making POSIX even more of a joke? In providing low quality "chase this API" target? In enforced obsolescence? Systemd does not provide stable APIs. For that, a standarization process is required and has not been followed. Or at least a conservative approach to API and ABI, like Linux kernel itself has. The whole thing is following a big ball of mud approach that has previously resulted in Linux distros having up to 5 sound APIs active at the same time. One of which is Lennart's work and getting obsolesced. (PulseAudio, much better written than systemd, by Pipewire. Because it cannot handle video and realtime.) To achieve its aims it has to be actually good, well written, have a working minimal core feature set and be version compatible. So far this has not happened for init.

MarkusWandel 2y ago

> Machine hanging indefinitely during poweroff/reboot ... I'm one of those troglodytes who still starts things from /etc/rc.d/rc.local Since this is not the systemd way systemd sometimes decides that it can't terminate these on shutdown. And the timeout for shutting down rc.local stuff is infinite. This causes the occasional hang until hard reset. I can manually change the timeout to something else, but any update tends to put back the infinite timeout. I suppose I should learn how to do it the systemd way.

eth0up 2y ago
Fellow Troglodyte, I have booted single user for the last decade, using startx to initiate the desktop environment. In Debian, it always worked, allowing me to observe the console output prior and address anything unusual before going gui. Switching to OpenSuse, the behavior is different, but I got start-xfce4 to work. Any obvious reasons this is different in OpenSuse? I've read that startx is deprecated, well, that and some interesting stuff about flat earth. Oh, and a genuine systemd peeve; the infamous ctrl-alt-del burst nonsense, where rapid succession (x7) reboots the system, even with the screen locked (unless with physlock).
- blueflow 2y ago
  Yes, plain startx has stopped working from upstream defaults. I think it was related to Xorg now having to talk to seatd (or alternatives) to get access to the input/video devices. In Debian it still works because Debian is slow with updates, but time is running.
  - eth0up 2y ago
    I'll justify asking here because the thread is dead, it seems, probably the "2018". Is there a clean, new method of configuring a persistent boot to cli? A link will do if an explanation is too much.
- rascul 2y ago
  The startx thing is mentioned (with a fix) in the release notes for 11.4 which I presume is when openSUSE made the change: https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i586/openSUSE/11.4/index.html#06 https://www.suse.com/releasenotes/i586/openSUSE/11.4/index.h...

112233 2y ago

Great, a public bug tracker!</s> If seriously, can someone explain to me the difference in attitude towards systemd and linux kernel? Almost all arguments against systemd stay valid, when applied to linux kernel, but I don't recall people campaining for decades to delete Linus and replace linux with Hurd or Minix3. Is it a political thing? A cultural thing?

blueflow 2y ago
The Linux kernel is much stricter about hacky patches and regressions. This has led to beef between the kernel and system developers in the past. The famous "I'm f*cking tired of your code" was directed at a systemd developer. While searching through the systemd issues, i noticed various form of that issue (systemd spamming logs) still persist. And Lennart doing their "you are holding it wrong"... nothing has changed since Linus' rant.
- 112233 2y ago
  Approach to the project maintenance really seems to be a significant difference, thank you. It would not account for most of the early attacks (when systemd was not adopted so wildly yet), nor the types of arguments ("unix philosophy", or "corporate takeover" like in this article) I mean, Linus is not known for mincing words or avoiding beef either. Is the style of personality (Linus/Lennart) at play? I mean, this is some doctorate degree on internet sociology level of beef here.
  - blueflow 2y ago
    When systemd broke tmux (which isn't a Linux project, but ported from OpenBSD) and instead of reverting or fixing their own bug, systemd devs went to the OpenBSD folks and asked them to work around the bug that they caused themselves. This is ragebait-level insolence: https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428 https://github.com/tmux/tmux/issues/428
johnea 2y ago
The criticisms also apply to the linux kernel. The article even mentions the elimination of seats on the linux foundation's board for "community" members, and the increase in seats allocated to corporate members. The linux foundation today is pretty much completely controlled by corporate interests. Linus is still the benevolent dictator, but as time passes, and Linus finally retires, unless something changes the future of control of the linux kernel will go farther and farther from it's roots as a user/contributor project in the "free software" spirit. To provide a definition of the primary difference between "open source" and "free software" development models: Free software development is primarily by a group of users, for themselves and other users. Open source is a business model of using community s/w development for a project that is ultimately intended to be sold for profit. One is development of software by a group of users for their use, the other is commercial product development. That's not to say that product development is inherently evil, but it does have very different objectives compared to s/w developed by users for their own use. Linux started as a free software project where contributors were users, and has morphed into an open source product development project.