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The rise of Islam through military conquest perhaps, but as a religion it is difficult to say. It spread in (East) Asia mostly through peaceful means all the wa

The rise of Islam through military conquest perhaps, but as a religion it is difficult to say. It spread in (East) Asia mostly through peaceful means all the way to China and South East Asia, for example.

alephnerd 2y ago
But the spread of Islam into China (in reality Central Asia - there's a reason Xinjiang has historically been called Turkestan, Uyghur is the closest living language to Chagatai, and why a Kashgari family has managed the Jama Masjid in Delhi for centuries) and South East Asia was itself because of Islam's prominence in Central and South Asia. The early Islamic preachers in what became Indonesia and Malaysia were South Asian or Iranian in origin, and a major reason why Persianate motifs are prominent in Southeast Asian Islam. Same with much of Central Asia. That would have not happened if the Byzantine-Sassanid War did not happen, because what became Yemen and Oman would have remained under Sassanid suzerainity and much of the Levant would have remained Byzantine. And thus, Khorasan, Gujarat, Sindh, and Punjab would have not become Muslim. That said, I agree with you that the spread of Islam was HEAVILY dependent on trade.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Yes Islam went into China through trade and missionaries via the silk road and sea routes. There is a one thousand year old mosque in Beijing. There are ethnic Hans who converted (now the Hui minority). There was a sizeable Muslim community in Guangdong in the Tang Dynasty. The same holds true, as far as I know, throughout South East Asia. My point is simply that Islam could and did spread peacefully, like Christianity did before it. So it is difficult to draw drastic conclusions, IMHO.
ImageLonging 2y ago
> It spread in Asia mostly through peacful means all the way to China The spread of Islam to China was only made possible through the spread of Islam first to Sogdiana, and that happened through quite violent means as we know from the written record.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  But Sughd, Khorasan, and much of Central Asia didn't become almost entirely Muslim overnight - it still took centuries for it to become the dominant religion with Buddhism, Nestorian Christianity, Mancheanism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Tengriism and folk traditions remaining common. Even in the 16th century if you read the Baburnama, pagans and non-Muslims were common across Central Asia and even Muslims like Babur were lax in their religiosity (drinking wine, eating pork, etc). In most cases, religion didn't largely solidify until the 19th-20th century with the rise of the nation state and nationalism. Religious nationalism in the modern sense (eg. Political Islam, Political Christianity, Hindutva, etc) only really began in the late 19th century when Rationalist (in the actual philosophical sense - not the tech bro bullcrap) and Enlightenment era thought began spreading.
  - ImageLonging 2y ago
    The arrival of Islam in Sogdiana resulted in an immediate decline in written transmission of other major religions, and they were gone by approximately the year 1000 CE. Even the Pamirs, always a relative backwater, were Muslim by the middle of the medieval era. Of course Islam in the region, just like the world religions preceding them, was mixed with age-old pagan beliefs or laxly observant, but in terms of politics and society, Islam of some form certainly became the dominant religion early, and that was due to the violent overthrow of the preceding regime by Qutaya b. Muslim al-Bāhilī and the installment of one that chose Islam as an official religion.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      Yet neighboring Nuristan (19th), Kohistan (18th), and Kashmir (17th) didn't fully islamize until the 17th-19th century - 7-10 centuries after Islam arrived in those regions. > they were gone by approximately the year 1000 CE Absolutely not. Nestorian Christianity and Buddhism remained common in inner Asia until the 13th century with the Mongol invasions. Depending on where you draw the line for Central Asia, non-Muslim religions remained significantly practiced in Central Asia well beyond that era as well. At one point, the Tibetan empire even controlled Kabul during that era, and the Turk Shahis remained Buddhist or Hindu (depending on the leader) well beyond that era. Even the leader of the Ghurid dynasty (Muhammad ibn Suri) was a Buddhist or Hindu Turk despite using a Muslim name.

alephnerd 2y ago

But the spread of Islam into China (in reality Central Asia - there's a reason Xinjiang has historically been called Turkestan, Uyghur is the closest living language to Chagatai, and why a Kashgari family has managed the Jama Masjid in Delhi for centuries) and South East Asia was itself because of Islam's prominence in Central and South Asia. The early Islamic preachers in what became Indonesia and Malaysia were South Asian or Iranian in origin, and a major reason why Persianate motifs are prominent in Southeast Asian Islam. Same with much of Central Asia. That would have not happened if the Byzantine-Sassanid War did not happen, because what became Yemen and Oman would have remained under Sassanid suzerainity and much of the Levant would have remained Byzantine. And thus, Khorasan, Gujarat, Sindh, and Punjab would have not become Muslim. That said, I agree with you that the spread of Islam was HEAVILY dependent on trade.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
Yes Islam went into China through trade and missionaries via the silk road and sea routes. There is a one thousand year old mosque in Beijing. There are ethnic Hans who converted (now the Hui minority). There was a sizeable Muslim community in Guangdong in the Tang Dynasty. The same holds true, as far as I know, throughout South East Asia. My point is simply that Islam could and did spread peacefully, like Christianity did before it. So it is difficult to draw drastic conclusions, IMHO.

ImageLonging 2y ago

> It spread in Asia mostly through peacful means all the way to China The spread of Islam to China was only made possible through the spread of Islam first to Sogdiana, and that happened through quite violent means as we know from the written record.

alephnerd 2y ago
But Sughd, Khorasan, and much of Central Asia didn't become almost entirely Muslim overnight - it still took centuries for it to become the dominant religion with Buddhism, Nestorian Christianity, Mancheanism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Tengriism and folk traditions remaining common. Even in the 16th century if you read the Baburnama, pagans and non-Muslims were common across Central Asia and even Muslims like Babur were lax in their religiosity (drinking wine, eating pork, etc). In most cases, religion didn't largely solidify until the 19th-20th century with the rise of the nation state and nationalism. Religious nationalism in the modern sense (eg. Political Islam, Political Christianity, Hindutva, etc) only really began in the late 19th century when Rationalist (in the actual philosophical sense - not the tech bro bullcrap) and Enlightenment era thought began spreading.
- ImageLonging 2y ago
  The arrival of Islam in Sogdiana resulted in an immediate decline in written transmission of other major religions, and they were gone by approximately the year 1000 CE. Even the Pamirs, always a relative backwater, were Muslim by the middle of the medieval era. Of course Islam in the region, just like the world religions preceding them, was mixed with age-old pagan beliefs or laxly observant, but in terms of politics and society, Islam of some form certainly became the dominant religion early, and that was due to the violent overthrow of the preceding regime by Qutaya b. Muslim al-Bāhilī and the installment of one that chose Islam as an official religion.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Yet neighboring Nuristan (19th), Kohistan (18th), and Kashmir (17th) didn't fully islamize until the 17th-19th century - 7-10 centuries after Islam arrived in those regions. > they were gone by approximately the year 1000 CE Absolutely not. Nestorian Christianity and Buddhism remained common in inner Asia until the 13th century with the Mongol invasions. Depending on where you draw the line for Central Asia, non-Muslim religions remained significantly practiced in Central Asia well beyond that era as well. At one point, the Tibetan empire even controlled Kabul during that era, and the Turk Shahis remained Buddhist or Hindu (depending on the leader) well beyond that era. Even the leader of the Ghurid dynasty (Muhammad ibn Suri) was a Buddhist or Hindu Turk despite using a Muslim name.