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100% of the students I have been teaching (roughly 5 to 15 years old) are using chatgpt for almost everything. It's sometimes a struggle to get them to think fo

100% of the students I have been teaching (roughly 5 to 15 years old) are using chatgpt for almost everything. It's sometimes a struggle to get them to think for themselves!

Cumpiler69 2y ago
This is the sequel to "You better learn calculus because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket." Well I already had a calculator on my Casio watch and now I have access to an AI supercomputer my pocket. Check mate Ms. Levenstein, joke's on you. >It's sometimes a struggle to get them to think for themselves! Was it any easier/better before ChatGPT? In my generation MTV and DOOM was to blame for kids being unable to think for themselves. Before that, rock metal was to blame for perverting the youth.
- blitzar 2y ago
  Let me tell you, back in my day ...
- shakna 2y ago
  An LLM is not an AI supercomputer. It will regularly give you information that is false, and if you do not know the subject well, you probably won't notice how wrong it is. We are still a very long way from Star Trek's computer being able to help you out.
  - xmzx 2y ago
    A calculator will give you bad information too if you don't know how to use the tool.
    - shakna 2y ago
      A calculator won't give you bad information if you use it correctly, though. AI, will. The same prompt can generate vastly different answers. Even the codegen examples given by the AI companies themselves have flaws in them. Critical flaws, like Claude's testing rig that doesn't test what it says it does, for example. The system is inherently flawed for most purposes it is currently being used for.
      - bdangubic 2y ago
        A calculator won't give you bad information if you use it correctly, though. AI, will. The same prompt can generate vastly different answers. I think this is exactly it except that part of “knowing how to use it” is also largely about knowing its limitations… ‘trust’ but verify my 11-year old has been using chatgpt/claude since it came out and I have nothing but awesome experience with how she is using it
        shakna 2y ago
        You sorta just made the point I'm trying to make here. How the heck, does your 11-year old, verify? Do they turn to you, who already has the necessary background? The AI generated information cannot be verified by someone who cannot already do, what it does.
        Cumpiler69 2y ago
        Could you easily verify the info from the library books back in the day?
        shakna 2y ago
        Back in the day, publishers were punished with fraud cases if they didn't verify their authors writings, so yes, verification was part of the chain. Different brands also traded on the trustworthiness of their platforms, and would issue yearly correctionals. Neither of those is analagous to glue on pizza.
        bdangubic 2y ago
        how do you verify? think about how would you do that if say you were forced to use AI for everything you do (I have friend that works in a place like this…). of course my kid is 11 so she is learning about algebra and electro motors and logic and roman empire… “AI” is one step in that learning but an insanely patient teacher. back in a day - she did not understand cube roots… she asked, was given an answer, she still didn’t get it, was given an alternate explanation which still didn’t click (worse than original), asked again (“I still do not understand, do you have another way to try to explain it to me…”) and so on. again, it is a guide, a very knowledgeable and patient guide… it is part of the journey, not the destination. anyone using it as destination (by reading MANY HN posts this is a vast majority of people) is going to be in the world of hurt
  - Crosseye_Jack 2y ago
    I look at LLMs like the advice given when Wikipedia launched. Use it as a jumping off point, but check its sources.
    - shakna 2y ago
      Hard to dive, if you don't know how to swim. LLM generated information needs you to be able to understand what it's producing, to be able to judge it. For that, you need education... That it can't trustworthily provide. You can't expect someone without a background to understand quantum entanglement. Can't expect someone without the knowledge to comprehend memory management. And if you do have the background... You're going to do a much better job than AI "slop", and that nickname has become popular for a very good reason.
- nothercastle 2y ago
  Well for a long time Colleges artificially took away calculators as they are great cheating tools so I guess that was true
- lm28469 2y ago
  > This is the sequel to "You better learn calculus because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket." Yeah it's all fun and games until you find a cashier who can't substract 20ct from $1 and need to get their iphone out to solve this really hard equation. Or people who can't locate Africa on a world map. You don't build a prosperous society on these foundations, regardless if LLMs can answer your questions
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >Yeah it's all fun and games until you find a cashier who can't substract 20ct from $1 and need to get their iphone out to solve this really hard equation. WTH, Cash registers have already been doing that automatically at every transition for the past 70 years or so. >Or people who can't locate Africa on a world map. How does that knowledge have anything to do with their work lives? Does your boss jump in the middle of your TPS reports in Jira and ask you to point Africa on the map within 3 seconds without using your phone or you're fired? I lived in the 90's Eastern Europe where a lot of people knew where Africa was on the map but society was anything but prosperous. Knowledge of basic geography is no guarantee of prosperity, your ability to get money is, and plenty of people in rich countries can make money without knowing where Africa is since workers in rich countries are way more specialized than before. Now you can be a car owner without knowing how to change the oil or how a clutch works. That was not the case 50 or so years ago. Knowledge of random shit or trivia has no value anymore in developed societies where every worker becomes more and more specialized in specific niches versus societies where everyone knows a little bit of everything from car repair, a little bit of plumbing, some farming and maybe some medical patch work on the side but nobody is specialized in any valuable skills.
    - KolmogorovComp 2y ago
      > Unless they're geography teachers or pilots, how does that knowledge impact their work lives? Democracy needs enlightened citizens, otherwise it's an idiocracy. But we already know in which world we live.
      - 2y ago
- skulk 2y ago
  I think technology is making the general populace stupider. Presidential debates are a litmus test for what politicians expect of the populace. A hundred years ago they sounded a lot different than how they sound now. Does your nihilism encompass this change as well?
  - thunky 2y ago
    So what is your proposed solution? Ban technology that helps us "think" and go back to paper and ink? Or would you rather we keep innovating but then pretend that technology doesn't exist (closed book, no calculators) to force us to be "smarter"?
    - skulk 2y ago
      My tone might have indicated otherwise, but I don't have a solution because I don't really see a problem along this axis. I don't really care about how stupid everyone is, as long as their material conditions are at a standard I consider good.
silveraxe93 2y ago
If they are not listening to you, then I guess you did a great job then ;)
Ekaros 2y ago
I don't believe in 100% figure. There is likely some 10% that is too lazy to figure it out and do minimal work themselves.

100% of the students I have been teaching (roughly 5 to 15 years old) are using chatgpt for almost everything. It's sometimes a struggle to get them to think for themselves!

Cumpiler69 2y ago

This is the sequel to "You better learn calculus because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket." Well I already had a calculator on my Casio watch and now I have access to an AI supercomputer my pocket. Check mate Ms. Levenstein, joke's on you. >It's sometimes a struggle to get them to think for themselves! Was it any easier/better before ChatGPT? In my generation MTV and DOOM was to blame for kids being unable to think for themselves. Before that, rock metal was to blame for perverting the youth.

blitzar 2y ago
Let me tell you, back in my day ...
shakna 2y ago
An LLM is not an AI supercomputer. It will regularly give you information that is false, and if you do not know the subject well, you probably won't notice how wrong it is. We are still a very long way from Star Trek's computer being able to help you out.
- xmzx 2y ago
  A calculator will give you bad information too if you don't know how to use the tool.
  - shakna 2y ago
    A calculator won't give you bad information if you use it correctly, though. AI, will. The same prompt can generate vastly different answers. Even the codegen examples given by the AI companies themselves have flaws in them. Critical flaws, like Claude's testing rig that doesn't test what it says it does, for example. The system is inherently flawed for most purposes it is currently being used for.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      A calculator won't give you bad information if you use it correctly, though. AI, will. The same prompt can generate vastly different answers. I think this is exactly it except that part of “knowing how to use it” is also largely about knowing its limitations… ‘trust’ but verify my 11-year old has been using chatgpt/claude since it came out and I have nothing but awesome experience with how she is using it
      - shakna 2y ago
        You sorta just made the point I'm trying to make here. How the heck, does your 11-year old, verify? Do they turn to you, who already has the necessary background? The AI generated information cannot be verified by someone who cannot already do, what it does.
        Cumpiler69 2y ago
        Could you easily verify the info from the library books back in the day?
        shakna 2y ago
        Back in the day, publishers were punished with fraud cases if they didn't verify their authors writings, so yes, verification was part of the chain. Different brands also traded on the trustworthiness of their platforms, and would issue yearly correctionals. Neither of those is analagous to glue on pizza.
        bdangubic 2y ago
        how do you verify? think about how would you do that if say you were forced to use AI for everything you do (I have friend that works in a place like this…). of course my kid is 11 so she is learning about algebra and electro motors and logic and roman empire… “AI” is one step in that learning but an insanely patient teacher. back in a day - she did not understand cube roots… she asked, was given an answer, she still didn’t get it, was given an alternate explanation which still didn’t click (worse than original), asked again (“I still do not understand, do you have another way to try to explain it to me…”) and so on. again, it is a guide, a very knowledgeable and patient guide… it is part of the journey, not the destination. anyone using it as destination (by reading MANY HN posts this is a vast majority of people) is going to be in the world of hurt
- Crosseye_Jack 2y ago
  I look at LLMs like the advice given when Wikipedia launched. Use it as a jumping off point, but check its sources.
  - shakna 2y ago
    Hard to dive, if you don't know how to swim. LLM generated information needs you to be able to understand what it's producing, to be able to judge it. For that, you need education... That it can't trustworthily provide. You can't expect someone without a background to understand quantum entanglement. Can't expect someone without the knowledge to comprehend memory management. And if you do have the background... You're going to do a much better job than AI "slop", and that nickname has become popular for a very good reason.
nothercastle 2y ago
Well for a long time Colleges artificially took away calculators as they are great cheating tools so I guess that was true
lm28469 2y ago
> This is the sequel to "You better learn calculus because you won't always have a calculator in your pocket." Yeah it's all fun and games until you find a cashier who can't substract 20ct from $1 and need to get their iphone out to solve this really hard equation. Or people who can't locate Africa on a world map. You don't build a prosperous society on these foundations, regardless if LLMs can answer your questions
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >Yeah it's all fun and games until you find a cashier who can't substract 20ct from $1 and need to get their iphone out to solve this really hard equation. WTH, Cash registers have already been doing that automatically at every transition for the past 70 years or so. >Or people who can't locate Africa on a world map. How does that knowledge have anything to do with their work lives? Does your boss jump in the middle of your TPS reports in Jira and ask you to point Africa on the map within 3 seconds without using your phone or you're fired? I lived in the 90's Eastern Europe where a lot of people knew where Africa was on the map but society was anything but prosperous. Knowledge of basic geography is no guarantee of prosperity, your ability to get money is, and plenty of people in rich countries can make money without knowing where Africa is since workers in rich countries are way more specialized than before. Now you can be a car owner without knowing how to change the oil or how a clutch works. That was not the case 50 or so years ago. Knowledge of random shit or trivia has no value anymore in developed societies where every worker becomes more and more specialized in specific niches versus societies where everyone knows a little bit of everything from car repair, a little bit of plumbing, some farming and maybe some medical patch work on the side but nobody is specialized in any valuable skills.
  - KolmogorovComp 2y ago
    > Unless they're geography teachers or pilots, how does that knowledge impact their work lives? Democracy needs enlightened citizens, otherwise it's an idiocracy. But we already know in which world we live.
    - 2y ago
skulk 2y ago
I think technology is making the general populace stupider. Presidential debates are a litmus test for what politicians expect of the populace. A hundred years ago they sounded a lot different than how they sound now. Does your nihilism encompass this change as well?
- thunky 2y ago
  So what is your proposed solution? Ban technology that helps us "think" and go back to paper and ink? Or would you rather we keep innovating but then pretend that technology doesn't exist (closed book, no calculators) to force us to be "smarter"?
  - skulk 2y ago
    My tone might have indicated otherwise, but I don't have a solution because I don't really see a problem along this axis. I don't really care about how stupid everyone is, as long as their material conditions are at a standard I consider good.

silveraxe93 2y ago

If they are not listening to you, then I guess you did a great job then ;)

Ekaros 2y ago

I don't believe in 100% figure. There is likely some 10% that is too lazy to figure it out and do minimal work themselves.