6 ms·

It isn't a "conservative talk-radio shopping list". It is reality in quite a few areas in Europe and the UK. > Economic Conditions and Political Outcomes are p

It isn't a "conservative talk-radio shopping list". It is reality in quite a few areas in Europe and the UK. > Economic Conditions and Political Outcomes are pretty sane and tolerable for all but a select group of (surprise surprise) US backed agitators like Hungary. You have to remember that the EU is run as a society rather than an economy, and must be judged on this ethos. People are very fond of using the comparable GDPs of Bavaria and Mississippi in this conversation - forgetting to mention the life expectancy is 10 years less and infant mortality 400% higher on the US side. This isn't true. I know many people that have moved from Spain to Hungary. Most of these people where politically fairly normal e.g. either centre-left right or centre-left. I speak to people from all over Europe regularly and many of them do not feel the way that you are describing. > Societal and Political trust is still quite high - despite much fearmongering, the far-right are not gaining the political capital necessary to instigate significant change outside of Hungary. That isn't true. I know many areas of Europe where the electorate keep on voting for further right parties. The same is happening in the UK. Labour only won because the Conservatives lost and the Reform party did extremely well for what is a relatively new party. I know the same is happening in Belgium (I speak regularly with Belgian nationals). Areas of Spain that are most affected by immigration have voted for further right parties. So I know this isn't true. > Re 'free speech suppression' I'm really not sure what you're aiming at. Just look up the hate speech laws enacted throughout Europe and in the UK and some of the cases that have been prosecuted. We do not have a right to the free speech in the UK and the majority of Europe doesn't either.

piltdownman 2y ago
>>This isn't true. I know many people that have moved from Spain to Hungary. Most of these people where politically fairly normal e.g. either centre-left right or centre-left. I speak to people from all over Europe regularly and many of them do not feel the way that you are describing. The plural of anecdotes is not data, nor does your select social circle represent a cogent sample group. Orbans stated position is to pivot Hungary from a democracy into an illiberal state, modeled after Putin's Russia. At the EU summit in mid-December, for example, he refused to agree to the extension of the Russia sanctions that expire at the end of January. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/02/europe/hungary-election-viktor-orban-preview-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/02/europe/hungary-election-v... Hungary are on the brink of being kicked out of the Schengen Zone, have about 12 billion in EU funds frozen because of their stupidity, and are now getting loans off China like some sort of tinpot African dictatorship in order to bridge funding gaps. The next biggest right-wing rise is - surprise surprise - bordering them and the ex-Soviet Bloc in Poland. That waned so quickly with the escalation of War in Ukraine that, even if they joined forces, Konfederacja + PiS could still not form a majority coalition for seat of the Polish Government. >>That isn't true. I know many areas of Europe where the electorate keep on voting for further right parties. The same is happening in the UK. You missed my key qualifier 'necessary to instigate significant change'. The Overton window shifts when society is impacted by War and mass refugee immigration, particularly in a period of high-taxes following high social spend (lockdown). >> Just look up the hate speech laws enacted throughout Europe and in the UK and some of the cases that have been prosecuted. Citations needed. >> We do not have a right to the free speech in the UK and the majority of Europe doesn't either. Well no, not explicitly, as they have a different legal and basis for law as the US - e.g. they don't have a codified constitution either as they came from a common law system based on the French Courts. Instead they hold the same proportional right as a negative right to freedom of expression under the common law. Its a moot point anyway as since 1998, freedom of expression is guaranteed according to Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights across Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  Freedom o expression does not guarantee you freedom of consequence in Europe. If you make fun of a politicians they or the state can come back after you for it.
  - piltdownman 2y ago
    Ehm... what? Political satire is one of the oldest and grandest cultural traditions in Europe. Hell, most European countries even have some variant of a political satire show like Spitting Image: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01439685.2024.2447139?src= https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01439685.2024.2...
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      Boy, you have no idea do you? And you're talking about satire, not reality. Our reality is worse than satire. https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorship-of-comments-calling-austrian-politician-a-corrupt-oaf/ https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorsh... https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared-in-mocking-politicians-case/ https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared...
      - piltdownman 2y ago
        I have every idea, living and working in the jurisdiction. >>https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorsh https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorsh... Eva Glawishnig-Piesczek v. Facebook Ireland is a defamation case. Look up venue-shopping in London for American defamation cases if you want a counterpoint. The CJEU later clarified hosting providers’ obligations to remove defamatory content https://www.ehrc-updates.nl/commentaar/209146 https://www.ehrc-updates.nl/commentaar/209146 >>https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared... Despite being acquitted, the Michael Much case was fairly understandable - the public prosecutor said freedom of expression had to be weighed against human dignity...(and) that propaganda does not fall under freedom of expression. No arguments here. 1A Rights aren't going to save you either, unless you call someone a 'pedo-guy'. The reason I specifically brought up Spitting Image is that I knew you'd cite this case - with this point specifically argued in court. "Partsch also pointed to popular TV-shows doing, he said, that did the same. If the court found against Much, it would mean a ban on creating political caricatures."

piltdownman 2y ago

>>This isn't true. I know many people that have moved from Spain to Hungary. Most of these people where politically fairly normal e.g. either centre-left right or centre-left. I speak to people from all over Europe regularly and many of them do not feel the way that you are describing. The plural of anecdotes is not data, nor does your select social circle represent a cogent sample group. Orbans stated position is to pivot Hungary from a democracy into an illiberal state, modeled after Putin's Russia. At the EU summit in mid-December, for example, he refused to agree to the extension of the Russia sanctions that expire at the end of January. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/02/europe/hungary-election-viktor-orban-preview-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/02/europe/hungary-election-v... Hungary are on the brink of being kicked out of the Schengen Zone, have about 12 billion in EU funds frozen because of their stupidity, and are now getting loans off China like some sort of tinpot African dictatorship in order to bridge funding gaps. The next biggest right-wing rise is - surprise surprise - bordering them and the ex-Soviet Bloc in Poland. That waned so quickly with the escalation of War in Ukraine that, even if they joined forces, Konfederacja + PiS could still not form a majority coalition for seat of the Polish Government. >>That isn't true. I know many areas of Europe where the electorate keep on voting for further right parties. The same is happening in the UK. You missed my key qualifier 'necessary to instigate significant change'. The Overton window shifts when society is impacted by War and mass refugee immigration, particularly in a period of high-taxes following high social spend (lockdown). >> Just look up the hate speech laws enacted throughout Europe and in the UK and some of the cases that have been prosecuted. Citations needed. >> We do not have a right to the free speech in the UK and the majority of Europe doesn't either. Well no, not explicitly, as they have a different legal and basis for law as the US - e.g. they don't have a codified constitution either as they came from a common law system based on the French Courts. Instead they hold the same proportional right as a negative right to freedom of expression under the common law. Its a moot point anyway as since 1998, freedom of expression is guaranteed according to Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights across Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_10_of_the_European_Con...

Cumpiler69 2y ago
Freedom o expression does not guarantee you freedom of consequence in Europe. If you make fun of a politicians they or the state can come back after you for it.
- piltdownman 2y ago
  Ehm... what? Political satire is one of the oldest and grandest cultural traditions in Europe. Hell, most European countries even have some variant of a political satire show like Spitting Image: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01439685.2024.2447139?src= https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01439685.2024.2...
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    Boy, you have no idea do you? And you're talking about satire, not reality. Our reality is worse than satire. https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorship-of-comments-calling-austrian-politician-a-corrupt-oaf/ https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorsh... https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared-in-mocking-politicians-case/ https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared...
    - piltdownman 2y ago
      I have every idea, living and working in the jurisdiction. >>https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorsh https://reason.com/2019/10/03/the-e-u-orders-global-censorsh... Eva Glawishnig-Piesczek v. Facebook Ireland is a defamation case. Look up venue-shopping in London for American defamation cases if you want a counterpoint. The CJEU later clarified hosting providers’ obligations to remove defamatory content https://www.ehrc-updates.nl/commentaar/209146 https://www.ehrc-updates.nl/commentaar/209146 >>https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared https://brusselssignal.eu/2024/03/german-businessman-cleared... Despite being acquitted, the Michael Much case was fairly understandable - the public prosecutor said freedom of expression had to be weighed against human dignity...(and) that propaganda does not fall under freedom of expression. No arguments here. 1A Rights aren't going to save you either, unless you call someone a 'pedo-guy'. The reason I specifically brought up Spitting Image is that I knew you'd cite this case - with this point specifically argued in court. "Partsch also pointed to popular TV-shows doing, he said, that did the same. If the court found against Much, it would mean a ban on creating political caricatures."