5 ms·

Transparency is great, but let's not forget that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables. We only have one nice planet to live on,

Transparency is great, but let's not forget that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables. We only have one nice planet to live on, and there are others who want to keep being able to live comfortably on it, I've heard. Oil/gas is a potent drug that is difficult to vane off of. (Arguably solar/battery has the same problem as oil: let's dig and refine stuff from the ground, and not care about how to take care of the concentrated product once we're done with it. But to a much lesser extent.)

nottorp 2y ago
That sounds good and altruistic... ... for the high income techies that make most of the HN audience. Ask a normal person how they feel about paying for the heat pumps and having an extra hundred or two on their ongoing heating bill and you may get a different answer. Up to and including them not being able to cut expenses anywhere else to compensate for this.
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  Yes but... the externalities are really expensive, and are going to be paid by somebody. It's a hidden cost
  - westmeal 2y ago
    What about in the case of a township offering "natural gas"/methane that would ordinarily be lost to the atmosphere anyway? Isn't it better to burn it rather than leave it as is? Methane is pretty awful stuff in terms of the greenhouse effect.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Agreed, but you only tend to accept that when the other needs in that famous pyramid are taken care of. Regulation that increases cost of living is only going to cause resentment and we already see where that leads to. Can't do it with feel good statements, you need the authorities to support/push towards cheaper electricity. Like the Denmark poster said elsewhere on this thread. Is this going to happen globally? I somehow don't think so...
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      China is pushing hard; EU is pushing less hard but a little; only the US (says) they're going to lag behind these next few years.
      - Yeul 2y ago
        America has vast natural gas reserves there's no need to invest. If your country has to import oil and gas there is a financial reason to change.
- torginus 2y ago
  You can DIY an usable solar setup, complete with battery, for a couple thousand euros, panels and inverters are already quite cheap and the battery prices is coming down. If you have the space to put it, you can be self-sufficient for most of the year. Equipment is VAT-free in Germany and Austria, too. The big problem with solar, is that winter days are cold and dark, so when you need heating the most, it's the least available.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    > If you have the space to put it High income people living in detached houses again...
    - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
      I think it depends on the country. In some places electricity is cheaper than gas (already) and it starts to go the direction of a no-brainer. But see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory On the other hand, with less demand from part of the population, gas prices should ultimately start to come down a bit; if we look at straight spot prices and pure economic theory. However, for some reason utilities don't always care about theory. And we probably want to stop using gas and oil in Europe anyway; would be smarter. (We're pretty much literally paying for wars waged against us; now and in future) So, I'm thinking maybe some sort of subsidized replacement program; perhaps interest-free loans with government backing or some such; which can be paid back with (part of) the efficiency gains?
    - torginus 2y ago
      Lots of people who are not exactly high income live in the countryside, too.. Additionally, living in shared housing does not disqualify you from having solar panels installed either - if you live in an apartment complex that's a modestly sized 2x2x2 - meaning it has 4x the surface area, and 4x the roof area, the math generally works out the same - for longer houses, it's better, for taller ones its worse, but I think there are a ton of sweet spots, but tall and skinny apartment buildings will lose out.
- datadeft 2y ago
  Exactly that. There was not a single global civilization on Earth that had low per capita energy use. High energy use per capita starts with the price.
glimshe 2y ago
It's not only potent, but fantastically cost-effective. There is a reason it's popular, or so I've heard.
- skyyler 2y ago
  It's not so cost effective when you include the future costs. But like a payday loan, it's hard for most of us to think about those future costs until they're being collected.
datadeft 2y ago
> that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables. You mean using energy sources that have a much better / kwh performance (both in terms of reduction of ecological footprint and price)?
rlpb 2y ago
> let's not forget that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables Here in the UK, natural gas is used to provide electricity[1], so switching to a heat pump right now isn't likely to help with the environment and (because gas is vastly cheaper per unit energy) nor the utility bill. You might as well spend the capex on the insulation upgrades required for a heat pump anyway, but then stay on gas. The bottleneck seems to be on us weaning ourselves off gas for electricity first. [1] 53% natural gas during the recent cold snap, and only 16% renewables, according to https://news.sky.com/story/britains-gas-storage-levels-concerningly-low-after-cold-snap-13286305 https://news.sky.com/story/britains-gas-storage-levels-conce...
- harg 2y ago
  You get more heat out of using a given quantity of gas to generate electricity which is used to to power a heat pump than you do by burning the gas directly for heat, even when considering generation and transmission losses etc. Given that even during a time of low output from renewables we still only rely on 53% gas for electricity generation it's still much more beneficial environmentally to use a heat pump. The monetary cost is another story though, and I agree we do need to work on weaning ourselves off gas.
  - StillBored 2y ago
    In areas with moderate outdoor temperatures. Anywhere that the heatpump is going through defrost cycles, that statement is likely false because the COP is likely 1 or less when that starts happening. Then on the generation side, its worse if the NG generation isn't a modern combined cycle plant. which also tends to nix places with a lot of renewable generation because the NG plants are just peaker gas turbines with much lower efficiency than plants designed for continuous use. So, its all situational, but at the same time if one has the choice for cheap NG using that as a second stage and setting the crossover heatpump temperature at the cost/BTU intersection between the heatpump and NG second stage is a rough approximation of the enviromental costs as well as the actual cost.
    - triceratops 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
NotAnOtter 2y ago
>the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables That argument won't work in practice though. You have to make it make financial sense to each and every individual to encourage them to switch, "Do it because it's the right thing to do" is a tall order when people are already on a tight budget. I'm sure the new US president will assist in this matter.
- buo 2y ago
  > to each and every individual Not to each one. I'm willing to pay more (within my means and within reason) if it pollutes less and/or produces less CO2.
  - NotAnOtter 2y ago
    Given you're surfing this forum, you probably work in tech and have expendable income, most people don't. Also there are many ways you could (and maybe already are) spend money to reduce CO2 impact. Electric car, buying solar, etc.

nottorp 2y ago

That sounds good and altruistic... ... for the high income techies that make most of the HN audience. Ask a normal person how they feel about paying for the heat pumps and having an extra hundred or two on their ongoing heating bill and you may get a different answer. Up to and including them not being able to cut expenses anywhere else to compensate for this.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Yes but... the externalities are really expensive, and are going to be paid by somebody. It's a hidden cost
- westmeal 2y ago
  What about in the case of a township offering "natural gas"/methane that would ordinarily be lost to the atmosphere anyway? Isn't it better to burn it rather than leave it as is? Methane is pretty awful stuff in terms of the greenhouse effect.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Agreed, but you only tend to accept that when the other needs in that famous pyramid are taken care of. Regulation that increases cost of living is only going to cause resentment and we already see where that leads to. Can't do it with feel good statements, you need the authorities to support/push towards cheaper electricity. Like the Denmark poster said elsewhere on this thread. Is this going to happen globally? I somehow don't think so...
  - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
    China is pushing hard; EU is pushing less hard but a little; only the US (says) they're going to lag behind these next few years.
    - Yeul 2y ago
      America has vast natural gas reserves there's no need to invest. If your country has to import oil and gas there is a financial reason to change.
torginus 2y ago
You can DIY an usable solar setup, complete with battery, for a couple thousand euros, panels and inverters are already quite cheap and the battery prices is coming down. If you have the space to put it, you can be self-sufficient for most of the year. Equipment is VAT-free in Germany and Austria, too. The big problem with solar, is that winter days are cold and dark, so when you need heating the most, it's the least available.
- nottorp 2y ago
  > If you have the space to put it High income people living in detached houses again...
  - Kim_Bruning 2y ago
    I think it depends on the country. In some places electricity is cheaper than gas (already) and it starts to go the direction of a no-brainer. But see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory On the other hand, with less demand from part of the population, gas prices should ultimately start to come down a bit; if we look at straight spot prices and pure economic theory. However, for some reason utilities don't always care about theory. And we probably want to stop using gas and oil in Europe anyway; would be smarter. (We're pretty much literally paying for wars waged against us; now and in future) So, I'm thinking maybe some sort of subsidized replacement program; perhaps interest-free loans with government backing or some such; which can be paid back with (part of) the efficiency gains?
  - torginus 2y ago
    Lots of people who are not exactly high income live in the countryside, too.. Additionally, living in shared housing does not disqualify you from having solar panels installed either - if you live in an apartment complex that's a modestly sized 2x2x2 - meaning it has 4x the surface area, and 4x the roof area, the math generally works out the same - for longer houses, it's better, for taller ones its worse, but I think there are a ton of sweet spots, but tall and skinny apartment buildings will lose out.
datadeft 2y ago
Exactly that. There was not a single global civilization on Earth that had low per capita energy use. High energy use per capita starts with the price.

glimshe 2y ago

It's not only potent, but fantastically cost-effective. There is a reason it's popular, or so I've heard.

skyyler 2y ago
It's not so cost effective when you include the future costs. But like a payday loan, it's hard for most of us to think about those future costs until they're being collected.

datadeft 2y ago

> that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables. You mean using energy sources that have a much better / kwh performance (both in terms of reduction of ecological footprint and price)?

rlpb 2y ago

> let's not forget that the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables Here in the UK, natural gas is used to provide electricity[1], so switching to a heat pump right now isn't likely to help with the environment and (because gas is vastly cheaper per unit energy) nor the utility bill. You might as well spend the capex on the insulation upgrades required for a heat pump anyway, but then stay on gas. The bottleneck seems to be on us weaning ourselves off gas for electricity first. [1] 53% natural gas during the recent cold snap, and only 16% renewables, according to https://news.sky.com/story/britains-gas-storage-levels-concerningly-low-after-cold-snap-13286305 https://news.sky.com/story/britains-gas-storage-levels-conce...

harg 2y ago
You get more heat out of using a given quantity of gas to generate electricity which is used to to power a heat pump than you do by burning the gas directly for heat, even when considering generation and transmission losses etc. Given that even during a time of low output from renewables we still only rely on 53% gas for electricity generation it's still much more beneficial environmentally to use a heat pump. The monetary cost is another story though, and I agree we do need to work on weaning ourselves off gas.
- StillBored 2y ago
  In areas with moderate outdoor temperatures. Anywhere that the heatpump is going through defrost cycles, that statement is likely false because the COP is likely 1 or less when that starts happening. Then on the generation side, its worse if the NG generation isn't a modern combined cycle plant. which also tends to nix places with a lot of renewable generation because the NG plants are just peaker gas turbines with much lower efficiency than plants designed for continuous use. So, its all situational, but at the same time if one has the choice for cheap NG using that as a second stage and setting the crossover heatpump temperature at the cost/BTU intersection between the heatpump and NG second stage is a rough approximation of the enviromental costs as well as the actual cost.
  - triceratops 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

NotAnOtter 2y ago

>the point of switching to electricity is to be able to use renewables That argument won't work in practice though. You have to make it make financial sense to each and every individual to encourage them to switch, "Do it because it's the right thing to do" is a tall order when people are already on a tight budget. I'm sure the new US president will assist in this matter.

buo 2y ago
> to each and every individual Not to each one. I'm willing to pay more (within my means and within reason) if it pollutes less and/or produces less CO2.
- NotAnOtter 2y ago
  Given you're surfing this forum, you probably work in tech and have expendable income, most people don't. Also there are many ways you could (and maybe already are) spend money to reduce CO2 impact. Electric car, buying solar, etc.