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The law says that US cloud providers are fined if they continued to provide services to Bytedance. As far as we know, Tiktok is operated on US servers by Oracl

The law says that US cloud providers are fined if they continued to provide services to Bytedance. As far as we know, Tiktok is operated on US servers by Oracle. While it might have been possible to find another cloud provider and move all US data there, I can see them not wanting to do that given that there was no point if the app isn't distributed in the US anymore.

TeaBrain 2y ago
There's currently no evidence pointing towards Oracle shutting down cloud service to them though. TikTok appears to have just preemptively shut down the app before they were obligated to, complete with dramatic messages telling users what to blame and who to thank.
- dmix 2y ago
  Even without following the letter of the law it's entirely rational behaviour for a popular market leader to foment outrage by fully blacking out services. 150 million users (in the US alone) is a very powerful political influence. Politicians frequently fold for a few thousand vocal people complaining on the internet. It was a gambit used for net neutrality in 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Slowdown_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Slowdown_Day
  - nightpool 2y ago
    Of course it's rational behavior. Nico was the one claiming that they were just "following the law", that's what this subthread was about. If you agree that TikTok was making a political point by shutting down, then you agree with the person you're replying to.
    - dmix 2y ago
      Not everything on the internet has to be a binary argument.
  - paulddraper 2y ago
    Sure that may be smart to forward interest. Nico argued TikTok made the minimum change required by law.
  - nthingtohide 2y ago
    Such compromises happen between companies as well when a particular app is popular. Facebook and Uber accessing private java apis which meant Google couldn't change the internals as these apps are popular.
- sillysaurusx 2y ago
  I’m not sure this is correct. I see where you’re coming from, but there was a clear date that the law was going to be enacted by, and tiktok simply followed that date. Pretty much everybody expected tiktok to be required to shut down. The law is clear that there are penalties for tiktok continuing to operate past that date, so it’s not really surprising. They were telling users who to blame and who to thank because in this specific case, the blame and the thank are pretty clear. The Biden administration approved the ban, and the Trump administration reversed it. Blaming one and thanking the other is also hardly surprising.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    Help me understand then if they’re following the letter of the law what changed with the law between the shutoff and now?
    - roenxi 2y ago
      Well, "the law" is a shorthand for "how the police behave" and there is a certain amount of realpolitik here. The basic argument here would be that the US Congress made a scary growling sound and TikTok folded immediately because the Congress is terrifying. But then Trump made more of a friendly sound and so they think they can operate a bit longer with some level of safety. There is no question that TikTok is a politically sensitive app and the US/China are very nearly in the funnel to a major war so a lot of the usual niceties are questionable. Previously the US has attempted something that looked a lot like a black-bag kidnapping of a Chinese industrialist [0]. I'd imagine that the TikTok people are acutely sensitive towards how the law is actually going to be interpreted and enforced in practice. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou
      - fc417fc802 2y ago
        [dead]
- supriyo-biswas 2y ago
  I believe Tiktok shut down the app in India in the same way without being "obligated to" either before the order came into effect, albeit without the dramatic messaging. (The latter part is probably because Tiktok's banning was not particulaly divisive within the population as it is in the US.)
  - creato 2y ago
    The dramatic messaging was entirely the point. India probably did not have an easily exploitable target for such a message, so there was no point in trying that there.
  - murukesh_s 2y ago
    I don't know exact figures, but when Tiktok was banned, Instagram was really popular - due to being pushed by Facebook, which was really really popular in India by then. None of my friends were on Tiktok, but all where there on Instagram. The reels thing was not popular but Facebook linked the account automatically and you just keep adding Facebook friends there as well. Tiktok had a better algorithm (to get hooked) but Instagram eventually caught up (with algo)..
- russli1993 2y ago
  Oracle did shut them down last night, if Google and Apple have to drop their apps on the apps store, Oracle and other providers have to drop them too. Btw, the app won't function even if parts of the infra is down. Btw, business is risk averse, they don't want to give any excuses for government to fine them. Bytedance should definitely shutdown everything and blocked all US users unless they have explicit, written and legally bidding instructions from the Justice Department. Only an executive order is enough. They asked Biden to give that, but Biden just smirked
- somenameforme 2y ago
  Oracle was shutting them down shortly after the clock struck midnight Sunday GMT. [1] [1] - https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shutting-tiktok-servers-0200-gmt-information-reports-2025-01-19/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shu...
- WrongAssumption 2y ago
  Yes there is. https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shutting-tiktok-servers-0200-gmt-information-reports-2025-01-19/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shu...
- fmbb 2y ago
  Is anyone but politicians to blame?
nickelpro 2y ago
That's not true, distributors of the app are fined. Meaning, very specifically, app stores. From (2)(a)(1): > (A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application. > > (B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States. Possession of and providing non-distribution ( / maintenance / update) services to a "Foreign Adversary Controlled Application" are not in any way a part of the "Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act". Operative services are specifically and intentionally excluded from the list, to ease the burden of enforcement.
- scarab92 2y ago
  Are you saying serving content to the application would not count as maintenance?
  - nickelpro 2y ago
    Legally, no, it doesn't
- lupire 2y ago
  Are you a DOJ lawyer or Federal judge? If not, what is your basis for your conclusion?
thelock85 2y ago
I don’t use TikTok but the “down” page mentioned you can still login to download data. What’s the cost and scope of providing that feature without US cloud providers?

TeaBrain 2y ago

There's currently no evidence pointing towards Oracle shutting down cloud service to them though. TikTok appears to have just preemptively shut down the app before they were obligated to, complete with dramatic messages telling users what to blame and who to thank.

dmix 2y ago
Even without following the letter of the law it's entirely rational behaviour for a popular market leader to foment outrage by fully blacking out services. 150 million users (in the US alone) is a very powerful political influence. Politicians frequently fold for a few thousand vocal people complaining on the internet. It was a gambit used for net neutrality in 2014 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Slowdown_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Slowdown_Day
- nightpool 2y ago
  Of course it's rational behavior. Nico was the one claiming that they were just "following the law", that's what this subthread was about. If you agree that TikTok was making a political point by shutting down, then you agree with the person you're replying to.
  - dmix 2y ago
    Not everything on the internet has to be a binary argument.
- paulddraper 2y ago
  Sure that may be smart to forward interest. Nico argued TikTok made the minimum change required by law.
- nthingtohide 2y ago
  Such compromises happen between companies as well when a particular app is popular. Facebook and Uber accessing private java apis which meant Google couldn't change the internals as these apps are popular.
sillysaurusx 2y ago
I’m not sure this is correct. I see where you’re coming from, but there was a clear date that the law was going to be enacted by, and tiktok simply followed that date. Pretty much everybody expected tiktok to be required to shut down. The law is clear that there are penalties for tiktok continuing to operate past that date, so it’s not really surprising. They were telling users who to blame and who to thank because in this specific case, the blame and the thank are pretty clear. The Biden administration approved the ban, and the Trump administration reversed it. Blaming one and thanking the other is also hardly surprising.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- vlovich123 2y ago
  Help me understand then if they’re following the letter of the law what changed with the law between the shutoff and now?
  - roenxi 2y ago
    Well, "the law" is a shorthand for "how the police behave" and there is a certain amount of realpolitik here. The basic argument here would be that the US Congress made a scary growling sound and TikTok folded immediately because the Congress is terrifying. But then Trump made more of a friendly sound and so they think they can operate a bit longer with some level of safety. There is no question that TikTok is a politically sensitive app and the US/China are very nearly in the funnel to a major war so a lot of the usual niceties are questionable. Previously the US has attempted something that looked a lot like a black-bag kidnapping of a Chinese industrialist [0]. I'd imagine that the TikTok people are acutely sensitive towards how the law is actually going to be interpreted and enforced in practice. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Wanzhou
    - fc417fc802 2y ago
      [dead]
supriyo-biswas 2y ago
I believe Tiktok shut down the app in India in the same way without being "obligated to" either before the order came into effect, albeit without the dramatic messaging. (The latter part is probably because Tiktok's banning was not particulaly divisive within the population as it is in the US.)
- creato 2y ago
  The dramatic messaging was entirely the point. India probably did not have an easily exploitable target for such a message, so there was no point in trying that there.
- murukesh_s 2y ago
  I don't know exact figures, but when Tiktok was banned, Instagram was really popular - due to being pushed by Facebook, which was really really popular in India by then. None of my friends were on Tiktok, but all where there on Instagram. The reels thing was not popular but Facebook linked the account automatically and you just keep adding Facebook friends there as well. Tiktok had a better algorithm (to get hooked) but Instagram eventually caught up (with algo)..
russli1993 2y ago
Oracle did shut them down last night, if Google and Apple have to drop their apps on the apps store, Oracle and other providers have to drop them too. Btw, the app won't function even if parts of the infra is down. Btw, business is risk averse, they don't want to give any excuses for government to fine them. Bytedance should definitely shutdown everything and blocked all US users unless they have explicit, written and legally bidding instructions from the Justice Department. Only an executive order is enough. They asked Biden to give that, but Biden just smirked
somenameforme 2y ago
Oracle was shutting them down shortly after the clock struck midnight Sunday GMT. [1] [1] - https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shutting-tiktok-servers-0200-gmt-information-reports-2025-01-19/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shu...
WrongAssumption 2y ago
Yes there is. https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shutting-tiktok-servers-0200-gmt-information-reports-2025-01-19/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/oracle-prepares-start-shu...
fmbb 2y ago
Is anyone but politicians to blame?

nickelpro 2y ago

That's not true, distributors of the app are fined. Meaning, very specifically, app stores. From (2)(a)(1): > (A) Providing services to distribute, maintain, or update such foreign adversary controlled application (including any source code of such application) by means of a marketplace (including an online mobile application store) through which users within the land or maritime borders of the United States may access, maintain, or update such application. > > (B) Providing internet hosting services to enable the distribution, maintenance, or updating of such foreign adversary controlled application for users within the land or maritime borders of the United States. Possession of and providing non-distribution ( / maintenance / update) services to a "Foreign Adversary Controlled Application" are not in any way a part of the "Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act". Operative services are specifically and intentionally excluded from the list, to ease the burden of enforcement.

scarab92 2y ago
Are you saying serving content to the application would not count as maintenance?
- nickelpro 2y ago
  Legally, no, it doesn't
lupire 2y ago
Are you a DOJ lawyer or Federal judge? If not, what is your basis for your conclusion?

thelock85 2y ago

I don’t use TikTok but the “down” page mentioned you can still login to download data. What’s the cost and scope of providing that feature without US cloud providers?