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Yeah, yeah, the meme copy-paste problem diagnosis, but what’s the solution? Rebuild into socialism? Rebuild into communism? Reset into early stage capitalism

Yeah, yeah, the meme copy-paste problem diagnosis, but what’s the solution? Rebuild into socialism? Rebuild into communism? Reset into early stage capitalism (lack of regulation and all)? How do you know that those systems won’t also have their own late stage failure? Case in point, the NHS right now. (Edit, posting too fast: To the person below who suggested 90% tax rates; the US never had those rates. On paper they did, but they had more and larger exceptions than now, to the point the effective rate never exceeded 45% anyway. This is also why the massive cut was politically palatable - it was cutting the rates to closer reflect the reality. At no point did the US ever have anything close, or even half close, to 90% effective rates.)

rwmj 2y ago
Cracking down on monopolies and rentierism would be a good start. Followed by tying pension rises to worker's salaries. None of that is actually going to happen because of who votes combined with a government that's scared of its own shadow.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Combined with the fact that those solutions just listed are short term and a surefire way to ensure nobody gets a pension. You also can’t act against monopolies when China happily won’t act against their own state owned monopolies, which are in an arm’s race trying to surpass us. Falling behind to China is a great way to cause a tech investment collapse.
- corimaith 2y ago
  Well everytime somebody wants to build high density housing or really anything to alleviate the housing crisis we get the usual NIMBY screaming similar to OP about evil corporations coming to destroy the character of their local neighborhood.
  - mapt 2y ago
    OP is a YIMBY for the record. Returning by right development to the UK is very possibly the single largest policy measure that might enable a way forward, not because it's so intimately tied to the financialization of the economy, but because it's such an enormous capital concentration that its limitations overshadow a lot of other issues. It may be hard to see it from where we're standing, but the current housing situation is one extreme of a catastrophic ongoing crisis.
  - pydry 2y ago
    Affordable high density housing used to comprise about half of all housing built in the UK. Then almost all constuction of it was halted. The private sector never built any of it. NIMBYs didnt stop this construction. Ideologues whinging about the % of GDP spent by the public sector did. NIMBYs are just a side effect of the world neoliberals created.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    If we're talking about the UK, then London is already as dense as it can reasonably be. It went all-in on public transit almost 200 years ago. And of course, it made it all worse. Now you HAVE to work in London if you want a high salary. The only real way to fix the housing is to promote remote work and decentralized companies.
    - corimaith 2y ago
      Yeah.. no. Have you been to Asian cities? It's rows and rows of 100 floor apartments, it's urban centers consolidated into high density malls and commercial centers. We're talking about dozens of high rises where every floor contains restaurants and shops. I daresay there is more to eat and shop in the 1km Radius around Ikebukuro Station then entire borough of Westminster! Nobody wants to work in some backwater in the middle of nowhere either, especially if you are young and want to meet new people.
    - mapt 2y ago
      "Reasonably" is doing a lot of work there. It sounds an awful like you're defining the boundaries of reasonability at "Exactly what is built right now and using the exact borders of current municipalities", which is a tautology. Even if we limit ourselves to the current municipal boundaries of London, population density is ~6000 people per square kilometer. Kowloon Walled City survived with 3,000,000 people per square kilometer, Manhattan has 75,000, Dhaka 23,000, San Francisco 19,000. Their system is a much better one than we tend to have in the US, but "All-in on public transit" looks more like Trantor than London. A majority of the TFL system was constructed more than a century ago.
      - cyberax 2y ago
        Nope. London is reasonably full already. The problem is that it's already 9 million people, and the high-paying jobs are focused in a fairly small area. So if you increase the population density, the transit to that focused area will have to carry more people. And it's already at capacity. If you want to increase the density, then London will have to create new business areas outside of Canary Wharf, City, and Westminster. At which point, the question becomes "why even bother with London?"
- HPsquared 2y ago
  The government is the biggest rentier and monopolist of all. It's the elephant in the room.
greenavocado 2y ago
In the case of the UK the solution in effect since the mid 2010s is increase taxation, replace the natives completely with someone more desperate, and suppress wages.
mapt 2y ago
The NHS is not dying an entirely natural death. Murder most foul. Your question is coupling a matter of our policy preference, our tactical planning to arrive at that preference, and a hypothetical predictive model. If like some supervillain I had come up with a satisfactory answer to all those questions I would have enacted it twenty minutes ago.
- _t9ow 2y ago
  > The NHS is not dying an entirely natural death. Murder most foul. I'm ignorant on this topic; do you mind elaborating?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nicoburns 2y ago
> but what’s the solution? I strongly suspect it's a variant on capitalism that: 1. Recognises that some industries (utilities, healthcare, etc) are not well suited to market provision and are state funded. i.e. the sort social provisions that many of the nordic countries have. 2. Recognises that extreme wealth inequalities invalidate the key principle that capitalist economics is premised on (that the market value of a good or service closely approximates it's societal value) and therefore imposes much stronger progressive taxes on very high earners to effective cap how much wealth a single individual can control. > early stage capitalism (lack of regulation and all) High tax rates (90% in some cases) and all
- mapt 2y ago
  The 'Laffer Curve' concept is treated at first glance as some kind of complex model created by experts that Explains A Lot, at second glance as something a bunch of drunk political operatives scrawled on a cocktail napkin in 1974 that doesn't necessarily have any relation to reality, and at third glance as a tautology whose dishonest core is the labelling of the x axis. Academic attempts to identify the optimal maxima of tax receipts, which conservative political operatives will always implicitly assume is "half whatever the current rate is", suggest something on the order of 60%.
  - nicoburns 2y ago
    > In economics, the Laffer curve illustrates a theoretical relationship between rates of taxation and the resulting levels of the government's tax revenue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve I would dispute the premise of the Laffer Curve: that the goal of setting a (high) taxation rate is to maximise government revenue. I think that reducing wealth inequality is a good in and of itself. And especially under a capitalist system that depends on it's citizens having vaguely equal purchasing power to function efficiently. Assuming that our starting point is our current situation where wealth is very unequally distributed, that is. I would agree with the suggestion that things being too equal, and there being no reward for hard work and/or ingenuity also leads to problems. Optimisation that tries to balance that trade-off would interest me greatly.
dennis_jeeves2 2y ago
>Reset into early stage capitalism (lack of regulation and all)? I think this wouldn't be bad.

rwmj 2y ago

Cracking down on monopolies and rentierism would be a good start. Followed by tying pension rises to worker's salaries. None of that is actually going to happen because of who votes combined with a government that's scared of its own shadow.

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Combined with the fact that those solutions just listed are short term and a surefire way to ensure nobody gets a pension. You also can’t act against monopolies when China happily won’t act against their own state owned monopolies, which are in an arm’s race trying to surpass us. Falling behind to China is a great way to cause a tech investment collapse.
corimaith 2y ago
Well everytime somebody wants to build high density housing or really anything to alleviate the housing crisis we get the usual NIMBY screaming similar to OP about evil corporations coming to destroy the character of their local neighborhood.
- mapt 2y ago
  OP is a YIMBY for the record. Returning by right development to the UK is very possibly the single largest policy measure that might enable a way forward, not because it's so intimately tied to the financialization of the economy, but because it's such an enormous capital concentration that its limitations overshadow a lot of other issues. It may be hard to see it from where we're standing, but the current housing situation is one extreme of a catastrophic ongoing crisis.
- pydry 2y ago
  Affordable high density housing used to comprise about half of all housing built in the UK. Then almost all constuction of it was halted. The private sector never built any of it. NIMBYs didnt stop this construction. Ideologues whinging about the % of GDP spent by the public sector did. NIMBYs are just a side effect of the world neoliberals created.
- cyberax 2y ago
  If we're talking about the UK, then London is already as dense as it can reasonably be. It went all-in on public transit almost 200 years ago. And of course, it made it all worse. Now you HAVE to work in London if you want a high salary. The only real way to fix the housing is to promote remote work and decentralized companies.
  - corimaith 2y ago
    Yeah.. no. Have you been to Asian cities? It's rows and rows of 100 floor apartments, it's urban centers consolidated into high density malls and commercial centers. We're talking about dozens of high rises where every floor contains restaurants and shops. I daresay there is more to eat and shop in the 1km Radius around Ikebukuro Station then entire borough of Westminster! Nobody wants to work in some backwater in the middle of nowhere either, especially if you are young and want to meet new people.
  - mapt 2y ago
    "Reasonably" is doing a lot of work there. It sounds an awful like you're defining the boundaries of reasonability at "Exactly what is built right now and using the exact borders of current municipalities", which is a tautology. Even if we limit ourselves to the current municipal boundaries of London, population density is ~6000 people per square kilometer. Kowloon Walled City survived with 3,000,000 people per square kilometer, Manhattan has 75,000, Dhaka 23,000, San Francisco 19,000. Their system is a much better one than we tend to have in the US, but "All-in on public transit" looks more like Trantor than London. A majority of the TFL system was constructed more than a century ago.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Nope. London is reasonably full already. The problem is that it's already 9 million people, and the high-paying jobs are focused in a fairly small area. So if you increase the population density, the transit to that focused area will have to carry more people. And it's already at capacity. If you want to increase the density, then London will have to create new business areas outside of Canary Wharf, City, and Westminster. At which point, the question becomes "why even bother with London?"
HPsquared 2y ago
The government is the biggest rentier and monopolist of all. It's the elephant in the room.

greenavocado 2y ago

In the case of the UK the solution in effect since the mid 2010s is increase taxation, replace the natives completely with someone more desperate, and suppress wages.

mapt 2y ago

The NHS is not dying an entirely natural death. Murder most foul. Your question is coupling a matter of our policy preference, our tactical planning to arrive at that preference, and a hypothetical predictive model. If like some supervillain I had come up with a satisfactory answer to all those questions I would have enacted it twenty minutes ago.

_t9ow 2y ago
> The NHS is not dying an entirely natural death. Murder most foul. I'm ignorant on this topic; do you mind elaborating?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nicoburns 2y ago

> but what’s the solution? I strongly suspect it's a variant on capitalism that: 1. Recognises that some industries (utilities, healthcare, etc) are not well suited to market provision and are state funded. i.e. the sort social provisions that many of the nordic countries have. 2. Recognises that extreme wealth inequalities invalidate the key principle that capitalist economics is premised on (that the market value of a good or service closely approximates it's societal value) and therefore imposes much stronger progressive taxes on very high earners to effective cap how much wealth a single individual can control. > early stage capitalism (lack of regulation and all) High tax rates (90% in some cases) and all

mapt 2y ago
The 'Laffer Curve' concept is treated at first glance as some kind of complex model created by experts that Explains A Lot, at second glance as something a bunch of drunk political operatives scrawled on a cocktail napkin in 1974 that doesn't necessarily have any relation to reality, and at third glance as a tautology whose dishonest core is the labelling of the x axis. Academic attempts to identify the optimal maxima of tax receipts, which conservative political operatives will always implicitly assume is "half whatever the current rate is", suggest something on the order of 60%.
- nicoburns 2y ago
  > In economics, the Laffer curve illustrates a theoretical relationship between rates of taxation and the resulting levels of the government's tax revenue. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve I would dispute the premise of the Laffer Curve: that the goal of setting a (high) taxation rate is to maximise government revenue. I think that reducing wealth inequality is a good in and of itself. And especially under a capitalist system that depends on it's citizens having vaguely equal purchasing power to function efficiently. Assuming that our starting point is our current situation where wealth is very unequally distributed, that is. I would agree with the suggestion that things being too equal, and there being no reward for hard work and/or ingenuity also leads to problems. Optimisation that tries to balance that trade-off would interest me greatly.

dennis_jeeves2 2y ago

>Reset into early stage capitalism (lack of regulation and all)? I think this wouldn't be bad.