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> The negatives of ~Tiktok~short form videos have nothing to do with … It feels silly with this coloring of TikTok as the evil when meta, Google and a dozen ot

by gklitz 2y ago

> The negatives of ~Tiktok~short form videos have nothing to do with … It feels silly with this coloring of TikTok as the evil when meta, Google and a dozen other American companies are doing the same, just less successfully because they let advertisers and corporate interests buy priority in the algorithm which literally just boils down to “you likely like the same stuff as people who like the same stuff as you”.

redcobra762 2y ago
You really can't tell the difference between Americans doing it and a foreign nation doing it?
- geysersam 2y ago
  It's not like the American companies have their users best interest at heart either! They're literally bound by law to prioritize their shareholders interests.
- anon84873628 2y ago
  Of course we can. But the hypocrisy shows how the government doesn't actually care about the health of citizens or society. If they did, they would start with regulations on algorithmic feeds as a first principal, then ban companies that don't comply. And that could include writing the regulations in such a way that ByteDance couldn't possibly comply, because of their ties to China. At least we would clean up our own home too in the process.
  - redcobra762 2y ago
    To rephrase my question: can you really not tell the difference to democratic health between Americans doing it and foreign adversaries doing it?
    - anon84873628 2y ago
      To rephrase my response: do you think this action will meaningfully improve democratic health?
    - ramblenode 2y ago
      For the most part I don't think there is a difference. It seems like once all the common factors of divisiveness and brainrot are removed, the main difference between TikTok and the others is that it would be harder for certain powers in the US government to corral TikTok into toeing the line on State Department foreign policy goals than western companies. Considering the largely homogenous, biased western media coverage of e.g. the lead up to the 2nd Iraq War, Patriot Act, US-Israel policy that has shaped American viewpoints, I don't think it is obvious why having a major non-aligned media source is a net negative.
      - redcobra762 2y ago
        There's no difference between the people who have to live under the regime they're changing and the people who seek its destruction? I can't take that argument seriously, sorry.
    - mvc 2y ago
      Just for the record. Is Russia a foreign adversary of the USA as-of today?
- famouswaffles 2y ago
  Well you should be far more wary of what your government will do with such data than a foreign one continents away but i don't think that's the difference you were looing for.
  - remixff2400 2y ago
    Hard disagree: your own government at least has the incentive to make the country better (or at least appear so) to seek reelection. A foreign adversarial government has the incentive to limit the growth and power of the other country, in so far as it affects their own country. Should you care about what your own government does with your data? Absolutely, 100%, no doubt, big ticket issue, fly the banners as visibly as possible. But more than an adversary? Not even close.
    - sethammons 2y ago
      one can make laws that affect my life. The other ... can maybe inspire me to dance? Or pray to the CPP I guess?
    - lmm 2y ago
      > your own government at least has the incentive to make the country better (or at least appear so) to seek reelection. A foreign adversarial government has the incentive to limit the growth and power of the other country, in so far as it affects their own country. "Adversary" is assuming your conclusion. My own government has plenty of incentives to attack my business (I've got plenty of competitors who would support them in doing so), far more so than the government of China.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  America IS a foreign nation doing it.
- justatdotin 2y ago
  to me, america is a foreign nation. so no, I do not see any great difference, and yet I'm caught up in this censorship of the internet.
jmye 2y ago
“Intentionally trying to destabilize the country and trying to sell you things are literally identical issues.”
- geysersam 2y ago
  As if America needs foreign influence to destabilize... I'd sooner blame viciously profiteering corporations and blatant disregard for democratic values among a significant fraction of American politicians.
dagss 2y ago
The odds [edit: ^W^W^W^Wchances] are just lower that Google and Meta would rig the algorithm to subtly color peoples opinion in favor of China and Russia. If TikTok is doing propaganda by subtly promoting some reels over others -- who would know? Why would they not be doing it and how can anyone know they are not already doing it? Not anything blatant of course. Blatant stuff does not change peoples opinions anyway. Just subtly bump some reels that has been proven to shift a demography in a certain direction. TikTok has all the data it needs to work with the minds of people and also all the ability. And China has the motiviation.. Of course Google and Meta might promote other goals in their algorithms, but the chances of a leak of that happening is definitely higher in current American companies
- justatdotin 2y ago
  > the odds are just lower well, this is awkward..
BrenBarn 2y ago
I agree. I'm not saying TikTok is much different than others. I'm saying when we see TikTok banned we shouldn't feel like "Oh no, not that!", we should feel like "Well, it's a start, but let's do more in that direction."
- MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
  "gross sort of psychological pollution" How do you define this? That's the problem. We should define it somehow, but instead we have a law written specifically for TikTok, making demands because we said so. A proper law is a law for everyone. A law for one company is foolish, wrong, and un-American. Its replacement was already gaining traction before the ban even hit. Without a proper law this is just a hydra waiting to sprout more heads.
lm28469 2y ago
> It feels silly with this coloring of TikTok as the evil when meta, Google and a dozen other American companies are doing the same Ban them all... You're arguing crack should be legal because cigarettes are

by gklitz 2y ago

redcobra762 2y ago

You really can't tell the difference between Americans doing it and a foreign nation doing it?

geysersam 2y ago
It's not like the American companies have their users best interest at heart either! They're literally bound by law to prioritize their shareholders interests.
anon84873628 2y ago
Of course we can. But the hypocrisy shows how the government doesn't actually care about the health of citizens or society. If they did, they would start with regulations on algorithmic feeds as a first principal, then ban companies that don't comply. And that could include writing the regulations in such a way that ByteDance couldn't possibly comply, because of their ties to China. At least we would clean up our own home too in the process.
- redcobra762 2y ago
  To rephrase my question: can you really not tell the difference to democratic health between Americans doing it and foreign adversaries doing it?
  - anon84873628 2y ago
    To rephrase my response: do you think this action will meaningfully improve democratic health?
  - ramblenode 2y ago
    For the most part I don't think there is a difference. It seems like once all the common factors of divisiveness and brainrot are removed, the main difference between TikTok and the others is that it would be harder for certain powers in the US government to corral TikTok into toeing the line on State Department foreign policy goals than western companies. Considering the largely homogenous, biased western media coverage of e.g. the lead up to the 2nd Iraq War, Patriot Act, US-Israel policy that has shaped American viewpoints, I don't think it is obvious why having a major non-aligned media source is a net negative.
    - redcobra762 2y ago
      There's no difference between the people who have to live under the regime they're changing and the people who seek its destruction? I can't take that argument seriously, sorry.
  - mvc 2y ago
    Just for the record. Is Russia a foreign adversary of the USA as-of today?
famouswaffles 2y ago
Well you should be far more wary of what your government will do with such data than a foreign one continents away but i don't think that's the difference you were looing for.
- remixff2400 2y ago
  Hard disagree: your own government at least has the incentive to make the country better (or at least appear so) to seek reelection. A foreign adversarial government has the incentive to limit the growth and power of the other country, in so far as it affects their own country. Should you care about what your own government does with your data? Absolutely, 100%, no doubt, big ticket issue, fly the banners as visibly as possible. But more than an adversary? Not even close.
  - sethammons 2y ago
    one can make laws that affect my life. The other ... can maybe inspire me to dance? Or pray to the CPP I guess?
  - lmm 2y ago
    > your own government at least has the incentive to make the country better (or at least appear so) to seek reelection. A foreign adversarial government has the incentive to limit the growth and power of the other country, in so far as it affects their own country. "Adversary" is assuming your conclusion. My own government has plenty of incentives to attack my business (I've got plenty of competitors who would support them in doing so), far more so than the government of China.
BLKNSLVR 2y ago
America IS a foreign nation doing it.
justatdotin 2y ago
to me, america is a foreign nation. so no, I do not see any great difference, and yet I'm caught up in this censorship of the internet.

jmye 2y ago

“Intentionally trying to destabilize the country and trying to sell you things are literally identical issues.”

geysersam 2y ago
As if America needs foreign influence to destabilize... I'd sooner blame viciously profiteering corporations and blatant disregard for democratic values among a significant fraction of American politicians.

dagss 2y ago

The odds [edit: ^W^W^W^Wchances] are just lower that Google and Meta would rig the algorithm to subtly color peoples opinion in favor of China and Russia. If TikTok is doing propaganda by subtly promoting some reels over others -- who would know? Why would they not be doing it and how can anyone know they are not already doing it? Not anything blatant of course. Blatant stuff does not change peoples opinions anyway. Just subtly bump some reels that has been proven to shift a demography in a certain direction. TikTok has all the data it needs to work with the minds of people and also all the ability. And China has the motiviation.. Of course Google and Meta might promote other goals in their algorithms, but the chances of a leak of that happening is definitely higher in current American companies

justatdotin 2y ago
> the odds are just lower well, this is awkward..

BrenBarn 2y ago

I agree. I'm not saying TikTok is much different than others. I'm saying when we see TikTok banned we shouldn't feel like "Oh no, not that!", we should feel like "Well, it's a start, but let's do more in that direction."

MetaWhirledPeas 2y ago
"gross sort of psychological pollution" How do you define this? That's the problem. We should define it somehow, but instead we have a law written specifically for TikTok, making demands because we said so. A proper law is a law for everyone. A law for one company is foolish, wrong, and un-American. Its replacement was already gaining traction before the ban even hit. Without a proper law this is just a hydra waiting to sprout more heads.

lm28469 2y ago

> It feels silly with this coloring of TikTok as the evil when meta, Google and a dozen other American companies are doing the same Ban them all... You're arguing crack should be legal because cigarettes are