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> but I assume language existed way before that Way, way, way older. Writing is an incredibly novel development. There are still today linguistic communities
by Tainnor 2y ago
> but I assume language existed way before that
Way, way, way older.
Writing is an incredibly novel development. There are still today linguistic communities without writing, although they're becoming much rarer. Writing was unknown in parts of the world until quite recently - the Aborigines of Australia didn't have it, nor did many pre-Columbian civilisations.
It's a safe bet that writing first emerged out of a need for accounting and this thus closely tied to larger agricultural civilisations. That's why we find it in places like Mesopotamia and Egypt first. Of course, those weren't alphabets yet, but logosyllabic writing (characters could stand for either meanings or syllables). The alphabet is a specifically Phoenician innovation, although similar systems (such as abugidas), which are also phonetic, have emerged elsewhere.
- yread 2y ago> the Aborigines of Australia didn't have it, nor did many pre-Columbian civilisations. No need to go that far, the Slavs didn't write down their languages until ~800s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glagolitic_script
- defrost 2y ago> No need to go that far .. Seems relative .. I literally grew up on Aboriginal land in the Kimberley and attended school with multi lingual kids that had non English speaking parents. Most are still not writing in their own language. What is "Far" for you is neighbours from school and locals of the town I now live in. Certainly these are closer in space and time than Slavs from a few hundred years past.
- mattclarkdotnet 2y agoPerthite Brit here. I’m hugely curious about the situation before the Europeans came. Was there really no writing? Were there really no boats? It’s all so murky because the history was literally not written by the aboriginal communities. But has a story been passed down?
- defrost 2y agoNo writing but a lot of drawing and oral transmission .. spending a few hours on a sand drawing while reciting a story that changes little across generations is another kind of map (and features in a massive tome on historic maps). No "boats" ala coracles or oak keel ships but (regionally) plenty of canoes .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Canoes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Canoes isn't set on the Swan River. Perth, of course, once had many lakes and swampy wetlands before all the market garden bore went in and drainage ditches. > But has a story been passed down? Many, all over. DM from up where I grew up touched up pretty old paintings and told stories: https://magabala.com.au/products/yorro-yorro https://magabala.com.au/products/yorro-yorro There were|are a lot of language areas each with stories of their own: https://mgnsw.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map_col_highres.jpg https://mgnsw.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/map_col_high...
- mattclarkdotnet 2y agoThank you for this. I’m lucky to live near Galup (Lake Monger). It’s wonderful but I’m always reminded how much has been lost of the original wetlands.
- zeckalpha 2y ago1492 is nearer than the 800s
- yread 2y agoI didn't mean far in time or space, I meant culturally. These people knew writing (in Latin) just not for their language. They had agriculture, domesticated animals, feudal society, some of them were already Christian, their language was very similar to English conceptually so their concepts would be similar to ours (well at least mine)
- Tainnor 2y agoI grew up speaking a dialect that people normally didn't regularly put into writing (and there still is no standard spelling) before the advent of text messaging.
- rrr_oh_man 2y ago> Writing is an incredibly novel development. Stating this as fact is misleading. Lack of evidence isn't proof of absence. Humanity in its current form has existed for 300,000 years. The idea that writing spontaneously emerged 13,000 years ago, independently in multiple locations all over the world, coincidentally right after glaciers melted and sea levels rose 300-900 feet, reshaping the world’s geography, is —at best— an assumption, not a certainty.
- stevage 2y agoWe have many artefacts dating 20 to 50,000 years old. They don't have writing on them. It's strong evidence.
- ianburrell 2y agoExcept writing didn’t emerge 13,000 years ago but 5000 for writing and 9000 for proto-writing. It also wasn’t discovered simultaneously. China is 3000 years ago, and Maya 2300 years ago. Sumerian or Egyptian were close to same time which probably means they were connected.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y agoAlso, writing didn't just spontaneously appear at random locations. It emerged in the most highly developed societies of the time, which had cities, agriculture, irrigation, sophisticated central governments, and so on.
- mmooss 2y ago> There are still today linguistic communities without writing, although they're becoming much rarer. From a 1969 study of preindustrial societies (though I'm not sure if they are all contemporary or if some are historical): 39.2%: No writing 37.1%: Pictures only 23.7%: Writing It's from a somewhat famous data set in its field: George P. Murdock, D.R. White. Standard Cross-Cultural Sample (SCCS). Ethnology (1969)