7 ms·

I don't know if it's a free speech issue but legally speaking it's definitely not a first amendment issue because the law targets foreign corporations and the C

• School-Cotton 2y ago
  So if a particular book were published by a French company, the government could ban it from being sold in the US? I’m sure that’s not true.
  • josephcsible 2y ago
    No, they couldn't ban just one book printed by a French company. They'd have to ban the company entirely. And that's what happened here too. It's not just TikTok that got banned, but all of ByteDance's other apps too, e.g., Marvel Snap and CapCut. And it's also important that divesting was an option instead. In your analogy, they couldn't ban the books outright, but could demand they be published somewhere else.
  • envy2 2y ago
    No. But they could ban American companies from providing services directly to that French publisher (e.g., a US company couldn't print books for or sell paper to that French publisher). However, a US law could not stop me from legally reading a copy I owned, or from selling or giving that copy to someone else within the US... The First Amendment case would be much clearer if this was actually about banning access to TikTok (it's not: TikTok self-blocked US users, Amazon/Oracle shut off servers, and app stores stopped distributing to US users). TikTok could choose to operate their service (like many other Chinese companies) using only non-US infra and without relying on American companies to distribute their app; indeed, the Chinese version of TikTok, Douyin, hosted entirely from Chinese servers, continued to work just fine. This case is also a reminder of why the iOS App Store is so bad for rights: at least on Android, you could sideload a 'banned' app; Google can comply with the law and US users can still download TikTok. On iOS, you don't have that option.
    • sneak 2y ago
      Using such restraints on foreign trade to censor publications is a very transparent end run around 1A. It is a big sign that we live in a police state that the courts are willing to be politicized to the point that they are willing to ignore this obvious trampling upon the human rights of both the app publisher and the app’s users. Also, iOS users can go buy a tablet or phone that can sideload. Also, tiktok.com is a thing that works on everything.
      • derektank 2y ago
        If this law is a trampling of human rights, then so would basically any anti-trust enforcement on media corporations
      • kempbellt 2y ago
        This isn't an "end run around 1A" - the law doesn't target any speech or content at all. TikTok can keep operating with all the same content, they just need to separate from Chinese ownership first. If this was about censorship, why include that option? This isn't about censoring content, it's about preventing ByteDance from collecting personal data from 170M Americans that Chinese law requires them to hand over to their government.
      • kelnos 2y ago
        Oh please. TikTok isn't a publication. The individual creators on TikTok have not been censored; they've merely been told that TikTok is not permitted to operate in the US, and that they will have to post their creations -- unedited, unaltered -- on other services. And those other services exist, and have wide reach, so it's not like saying "sure, you can continue to create, but your audience is now 5% the size it was before". > Also, tiktok.com is a thing that works on everything. Sounds like you're arguing against yourself. TikTok hasn't actually been banned.
        • sneak 2y ago
          yes, tiktok is publication of an application program.
• lokar 2y ago
  And we have a long history of restricting foreign media ownership
• echoangle 2y ago
  But wouldn't you be infringing the rights of the US users if you ban the platform they want to message other US users over? Isn't that indirectly infringing their free speech? Or does the first amendment not protect stuff like this?
  • Bjartr 2y ago
    That indirectness is exactly why it's not. The first amendment ensures you can express what you want, but you're not owed a platform.
    • echoangle 2y ago
      But can the government actively interfere with my communication by banning the platform? If the government notices that a lot of critics are organizing over Discord, can they ban Discord, because they're not banning speech specifically, only a platform used to spread the speech?
      • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > can the government actively interfere with my communication by banning the platform? Yes. Foreign-ownership rules have been a thing in America for almost a century [1]. [1] https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-policies-common-carrier-aeronautical-en-route-and-aeronautical https://www.fcc.gov/general/foreign-ownership-rules-and-poli...
      • vivekd 2y ago
        I think what you raise is something the courts should consider if the government were trying to shut down a platform because of what it's users were doing on it. But it's not a live issue in this case. There is no allegation that the US seeks to suppress TikTok because of what Americans are posting on it. TikTok isn't saying the government is doing that and I don't believe the government is seeking to control the speech of TikTok users. The consern seems to be more about who controls the algorithm and data collection (a foreign state with adversarial interests) and it seems to me that it has nothing to do with anything Americans are posting on TikTok. I mean the content on TikTok isn't all that political or revolutionary
• wongarsu 2y ago
  But there are American users making and viewing content on that platform. The physical equivalent would be if China was hosting a TED-talk-like conference where anyone can come and hold a presentation, and after certain kinds of talks became popular congress would tell them that they are no longer allowed to let Americans in, neither to hold presentations nor to listen to them. Technically that doesn't violate the constitution, but it's not difficult to argue that it does violate the spirit of the constitution
  • NLPaep 2y ago
    An issue arises when popularity is manipulated through artificial boosting by an adversarial government. At some point, it becomes State Propaganda masquerading as grassroots activists. Control over content can influence and distort public discourse and understanding. This is also against the spirit of free expression envisioned in the constitution and instead injecting an intentionally divisive voice.
  • unethical_ban 2y ago
    The physical equivalent would be if the Chinese intelligence apparatus opened an auditorium where they said "come sit here and let us read your mind and we will feed you what advances our national interest".
  • Jensson 2y ago
    > But there are American users making and viewing content on that platform. Those Americans can host the exact same content on youtube or any of the many other video hosting sites. This is not a free speech issue, it is a megaphone issue.
    • Spivak 2y ago
      Just as a thought experiment, take your reasoning and try to ban as much speech with as much specificity as you can. You can't ban the content of the speech but you can ban venues where speech takes place and and means of transmitting speech so long as at least one venue and means remains.
    • 2y ago
• woooooo 2y ago
  The constitution applies to American users and to non-Americans on American soil. It's not like the cops can execute you for being here on a tourist visa.
  • throwawaymaths 2y ago
    I do not think that the constitution necessarily applies to corporations. Corporations, for example, do not have a vote. Forced corporate divestiture is a thing, for example Merck.
    • rinvi 2y ago
      Corporations have First Amendment rights as ruled by Citizens United v. FEC. Even though corporations don’t have a vote (which is its own can of worms because of their economic power, money = vote), they still enjoy some of the same constitutional protections as individuals do.
      • throwawaymaths 2y ago
        i mean that's old law. theres a new law in town and it was a 9-0 ruling too.
      • zeroonetwothree 2y ago
        Thats only because those corporations are owned by Americans. Foreign corporations do not have first amendment rights.
        • Gormo 2y ago
          No, there's no such reasoning in that decision, which confirmed that speech itself is protected by the first amendment, regardless of who originates it. And this ruling had little to do with any of that -- the first amendment challenge was that the ban imposed content-based burdens on the speech of the users of TikTok, and the court ruled that it did not. So the ban therefore survived the challenge under intermediate scrutiny. The domestic vs. foreign ownership element of the ruling only pertained to the evaluation of whether there was a compelling government interest in enacting the ban, not whether the government was exempt from first amendment scrutiny at all.
• Kamq 2y ago
  > the Constitution doesn't apply to foreign entities Sort of true. Sometimes the constitution just says "persons", which has generally been interpreted to anyone. But it's not material, because the 1st amendment is a restriction on congress. That's why it starts with "Congress shall make no law...". The argument isn't about if TikTok has rights, it's about if congress is authorized to take this action. They're inter-mixed a bit because if TikTok does have the rights they claim, then congress automatically isn't authorized, but they are separate.
  • vivekd 2y ago
    you're right, my statement is an extreme oversimplification and there are situations where the constitution does apply to noncitizens (like due process during deportation) or places where things are unclear (if speech of foreign nationals were being regulated). But this case where we are talking about a foreign media platform's right to operate in the US without any reference to the content they are broadcasting... this seems to be one of those rare clear cut cases. I mean no one saw any issue with America effectively banning RT. There were some people on here saying that national security is just a pretense and the government is actually doing this because they dislike some of the content being posted on TikTok. I don't know if that's the case but if it were then I would concede there is a first amendment issue. But absent that I think it's safe to say that this case doesn't raise the first amendment.
    • Kamq 2y ago
      > But absent that I think it's safe to say that this case doesn't raise the first amendment. I still think it does, but it's Apple and Google's right to propagate the app, not TikTok's right to be on the app store. And since neither Apple nor Google are party to the lawsuit, nobody really has standing to take that particular line of argument.
  • chrisco255 2y ago
    Yes, of course Congress has the authority to restrict foreign companies purely from the Commerce Clause alone. Their power over restricting foreign entities in the U.S. is nearly total. The U.S. is under no obligation to host speech or operations from any foreign business, entity, or application for any reason whatsoever.
• gnkyfrg 2y ago
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• bjourne 2y ago
  You may wish to read FIRE and other organizations amicus brief where they lay out exactly why they think the ban is a free speech issue, legally speaking: https://www.thefire.org/sites/default/files/2024/12/Amici-TikTok%20v%20Garland.pdf https://www.thefire.org/sites/default/files/2024/12/Amici-Ti...