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How does it matter where those videos were shared? Material is either classified or unclassified, it doesn't matter if the WarThunder forums (for example) are m

How does it matter where those videos were shared? Material is either classified or unclassified, it doesn't matter if the WarThunder forums (for example) are moderated by US nationals or not.

vasco 2y ago
It's not about where the videos are posted, it's about having apps that collect exact GPS position of smartphones that soldiers carry while the position of the ships they are on is classified. The fact that there's videos is just the "proof" that they have installed such apps that exfiltrate things like their location, for example. Famously, soldiers wanted to use strava in secret military bases: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracking-app-gives-away-location-of-secret-us-army-bases https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracki...
- whatshisface 2y ago
  If you want to secure sailors' phones you are going to have to do a lot more, and at the same time much less, than ban or transfer the ownership of one single app that happens to be used by over a hundred million civilians.
  - redwall_hp 2y ago
    GasBuddy (and Life360) just sold that same location data to brokers, which Allstate bought and used to adjust premiums. Practically every app that is given access to location info is selling it, and it's widely available to anyone with the money to buy. Maybe we should have some sort of General Data Protection Regulation law instead of hand-wringing about social media.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      GasBuddy, at least, said that they could (read: would) sell the location data that they collected after opt-in. It was part of the agreement. I can't imagine a world where it would be illegal for two parties to agree to sell the location data that one of them generates.
      - woodson 2y ago
        That’s the world we live in today. Under many countries’ privacy laws, it’s not legal to sell PII to a third party that you collected for a specific other purpose (e.g., fulfilling the primary purpose of the app). The problem is that they do it anyways.
        ssl-3 2y ago
        What problem? If I agree to let FantasyCorp sell my location data, and then they follow through with our agreement and actually sell it, then there's no problem here that I can see.
- Kye 2y ago
  Are ship locations classified? I doubt China has difficulty keeping track. They have satellites too.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    They almost certainly are while on deployment, despite it being really obvious where a ship is.
    - Atotalnoob 2y ago
      Oceans are vast, sometimes there are clouds and storms.
      - echoangle 2y ago
        Clouds and storms don’t really help you with a SAR satellite.
  - wcunning 2y ago
    The Onion Router was invented by the Navy to make ship location tracking hard with visibility of some of the network, so it's classified at times. More importantly, just because you have satellites doesn't mean that it's easy to pick all of that out all the time or to be entirely certain of which ship/which mission, etc. Making it harder is better even if it can't be made impossible outside of subs.
  - catlifeonmars 2y ago
    App usage not only leaks location, but number of troops; something which is not readily detectable by satellite.
    - echoangle 2y ago
      Wouldn’t the crew of a ship be pretty constant though, for this example?
      - 2y ago
- Gormo 2y ago
  Why are soldiers allowed to bring GPS-enable consumer smartphones along with them on top-secret deployments in the first place?
  - catlifeonmars 2y ago
    It’s not top secret deployments, it’s any deployments. All deployments need to maintain a level of operational security. Also if you expect a bunch of people in the 18-29 age range to go without internet for 9 months to 2 years, you’re kidding yourself. The tradeoff is between operational security and morale and if you’re in military leadership, you really don’t want unhappy troops on your hands.
    - Gormo 2y ago
      I mean, I do completely expect deployed military personnel to adhere to rules and limitations that are much more rigorous than those they'd experience in civilian life. I'd be astonished if I learned that soldiers on duty were totally free to do as they please the expense of operational security simply because that's what people in their broad demographic category are accustomed to. I'd be equally astonished if I found that military recruitment was based on enlisting cross-sectional samples of demographic categories, without regard for the capacities and attitudes of the specific individuals seeking to join. I know for a fact that people are rejected for enlistment for all sorts of reasons. And I'm sure that the military can find ways of enabling deployed personnel to use the internet without sacrificing security or oversight -- for example by requiring them to use secured military-issue computers and smartphones, or by having an inspection or vetting process for hardware and software when soldiers want to use their own devices. I hope you also acknowledge the absurdity of suggesting that the government should apply essentially the same restrictions to the whole of society that the military couldn't apply within its own sphere of control.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        You're constructing a straw man without being curious about the things you yourself are missing. Or in HNism, you're "Why don't they just..." without considering the reasons those solutions might be more challenging than they first appear. I suggest you read parent comment about balance and tradeoffs inherent in forward deployment again.

How does it matter where those videos were shared? Material is either classified or unclassified, it doesn't matter if the WarThunder forums (for example) are moderated by US nationals or not.

vasco 2y ago

It's not about where the videos are posted, it's about having apps that collect exact GPS position of smartphones that soldiers carry while the position of the ships they are on is classified. The fact that there's videos is just the "proof" that they have installed such apps that exfiltrate things like their location, for example. Famously, soldiers wanted to use strava in secret military bases: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracking-app-gives-away-location-of-secret-us-army-bases https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/fitness-tracki...

whatshisface 2y ago
If you want to secure sailors' phones you are going to have to do a lot more, and at the same time much less, than ban or transfer the ownership of one single app that happens to be used by over a hundred million civilians.
- redwall_hp 2y ago
  GasBuddy (and Life360) just sold that same location data to brokers, which Allstate bought and used to adjust premiums. Practically every app that is given access to location info is selling it, and it's widely available to anyone with the money to buy. Maybe we should have some sort of General Data Protection Regulation law instead of hand-wringing about social media.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    GasBuddy, at least, said that they could (read: would) sell the location data that they collected after opt-in. It was part of the agreement. I can't imagine a world where it would be illegal for two parties to agree to sell the location data that one of them generates.
    - woodson 2y ago
      That’s the world we live in today. Under many countries’ privacy laws, it’s not legal to sell PII to a third party that you collected for a specific other purpose (e.g., fulfilling the primary purpose of the app). The problem is that they do it anyways.
      - ssl-3 2y ago
        What problem? If I agree to let FantasyCorp sell my location data, and then they follow through with our agreement and actually sell it, then there's no problem here that I can see.
Kye 2y ago
Are ship locations classified? I doubt China has difficulty keeping track. They have satellites too.
- pjc50 2y ago
  They almost certainly are while on deployment, despite it being really obvious where a ship is.
  - Atotalnoob 2y ago
    Oceans are vast, sometimes there are clouds and storms.
    - echoangle 2y ago
      Clouds and storms don’t really help you with a SAR satellite.
- wcunning 2y ago
  The Onion Router was invented by the Navy to make ship location tracking hard with visibility of some of the network, so it's classified at times. More importantly, just because you have satellites doesn't mean that it's easy to pick all of that out all the time or to be entirely certain of which ship/which mission, etc. Making it harder is better even if it can't be made impossible outside of subs.
- catlifeonmars 2y ago
  App usage not only leaks location, but number of troops; something which is not readily detectable by satellite.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Wouldn’t the crew of a ship be pretty constant though, for this example?
    - 2y ago
Gormo 2y ago
Why are soldiers allowed to bring GPS-enable consumer smartphones along with them on top-secret deployments in the first place?
- catlifeonmars 2y ago
  It’s not top secret deployments, it’s any deployments. All deployments need to maintain a level of operational security. Also if you expect a bunch of people in the 18-29 age range to go without internet for 9 months to 2 years, you’re kidding yourself. The tradeoff is between operational security and morale and if you’re in military leadership, you really don’t want unhappy troops on your hands.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    I mean, I do completely expect deployed military personnel to adhere to rules and limitations that are much more rigorous than those they'd experience in civilian life. I'd be astonished if I learned that soldiers on duty were totally free to do as they please the expense of operational security simply because that's what people in their broad demographic category are accustomed to. I'd be equally astonished if I found that military recruitment was based on enlisting cross-sectional samples of demographic categories, without regard for the capacities and attitudes of the specific individuals seeking to join. I know for a fact that people are rejected for enlistment for all sorts of reasons. And I'm sure that the military can find ways of enabling deployed personnel to use the internet without sacrificing security or oversight -- for example by requiring them to use secured military-issue computers and smartphones, or by having an inspection or vetting process for hardware and software when soldiers want to use their own devices. I hope you also acknowledge the absurdity of suggesting that the government should apply essentially the same restrictions to the whole of society that the military couldn't apply within its own sphere of control.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      You're constructing a straw man without being curious about the things you yourself are missing. Or in HNism, you're "Why don't they just..." without considering the reasons those solutions might be more challenging than they first appear. I suggest you read parent comment about balance and tradeoffs inherent in forward deployment again.