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Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Japanese culture valued the elderly a lot more than in the west, and therefore stuff like this would be funded by the go

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Japanese culture valued the elderly a lot more than in the west, and therefore stuff like this would be funded by the government?

newsclues 2y ago
At scale (large population) doing any job to 100% is hard, even in Japan.
gedy 2y ago
Informally, Asian cultures lean on family a lot more for generational support than Anglo cultures, but when you have less/no children it's pretty harsh.
adev_ 2y ago
Pensions in Japan are divided in two systems: public and private. Which one you have depend of your job type. Public pensions are extremely low (~5600$/year). They are more a "survival minimal amount" for the elderly than a real retirement pension. There is also a phenomenon of pride among the elderlies in Japan: It is almost unthinkable for them to ask money to their children (At the opposite, doing so is pretty common in China or Korea). Considering this context and life conditions, it is no surprise that some elderly with the lowest pensions choose to turn into crime to try to overcome their situation. Their is a lesson the west should take here: Western countries birthrate follows the direction of Japan ones. Considering our pension schemes will become also at risk, we might encounter exactly the same situation in some decades.
- smgit 2y ago
  They will die natural deaths much earlier and peacefully without all kinds of mental/physical decline if beyond retirement age, they just stop taking any medication. Especially if they have no plan to do anything other than prolong their own lives for no reason. I can understand seniors who are active and have something going on in their lives. But if you spend time around hospitals/pharmacies the number of seniors who have nothing going on other than making hospital/pharmacy visits is ridiculous. Its like they are kept alive cause docs and pharma companies can keep them alive. Not for any other reason.
  - silver_silver 2y ago
    You don’t have to have “something going on” for your life to be worth living or have value
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    Yes, antibiotics might be cheap but the cost is enormous.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
    > But if you spend time around hospitals/pharmacies the number of seniors who have nothing going on other than making hospital/pharmacy visits is ridiculous. Who are you to say this, genuinely? If a person wants to refuse treatment, they are able to even if it would be fatal to them. If a person feels their life is still worth living, who are you to judge that and advocate for making the choice for them? I only bristle because this is also the logic to assume people who are severely disabled are better off dead without ever consulting them (a fact constantly fought against by severely disabled advocates like Alice Wong).
    - DontchaKnowit 2y ago
      I agree but there is also a pretty large subset of that elderly population that is like "I want to die. Please let me die" and then the nurse is like "ok sure Alice now take your pills"
  - gcanyon 2y ago
    > the number of seniors who have nothing going on other than making hospital/pharmacy visits is ridiculous As someone who is part way down this slope, let me tell you: it's not like you're fine, you're fine, you're fine...BOOM! you spend your life going to the doctor. Instead, it starts with "I go to the doctor every few years because I remember to," to "I have this one thing that requires me to check in annually," to "I have to double-check the pills I'm taking in the morning to make sure I'm taking all the right ones," to "It seems like I always have 1-3 doctor appointments pending," to, I'm assuming, what you're describing. That makes it harder to pick the point where you should step onto the ice floe and wave good-bye to your family.
- dismalaf 2y ago
  > Considering our pension schemes will become also at risk, we might encounter exactly the same situation in some decades. Canada here. The maximum possible CPP (Canada Pension Plan) monthly payout is half the average rent for a 2 bedroom apartment across the country. It's funny, 20 years ago we were talking about boomers not having saved enough for retirement and worries around that... Now real estate has inflated so much that boomers are the wealthiest cohort and most retire by selling real estate then downsizing or renting...
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Canada here. The maximum possible CPP (Canada Pension Plan) monthly payout is half the average rent for a 2 bedroom apartment across the country. 1. For cities or rural areas? If you're retired you don't really need to live close to a city center for a job. That'll reduce costs significantly. 2. Why would a retired person need 2 bedrooms?
    - Qem 2y ago
      > Why would a retired person need 2 bedrooms? To receive visiting relatives for a couple days. Also when they get sick or break a bone, and need 24/7 assistance for a couple weeks/months, having a second bedroom available is very helpful.
    - dismalaf 2y ago
      1. Country wide. In Toronto or Vancouver it's more like 3-4x. 2. Because 2 bedrooms are the most common type of unit so realistically that's the actual "average rent". Statistics that use single bedroom units are garbage because so few units exist.
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      The elderly probably need to live close(r) to healthcare facilities. The vast majority of chronic disease burden is concentrated into the last 10 years of life or so. Living in a rural area with few doctors in proximity means realistic risk of undetected cancer, or having a heart attack too far from an ICU etc., thus dying perhaps a decade earlier.
bell-cot 2y ago
Historically, and in theory, Japanese culture did and does value the elderly highly. In practical reality...especially in sustained poor economic times, with the "normal" shape of the population pyramid long gone, many families fall short of that ideal. The nice prison is funded by the government. Think of it as a social welfare program with an innovative barrier to those who do not truly need the help.
helboi4 2y ago
Japan has a pretty cold family culture compared to other nearby countries like China and Korea. They show respect for the eldery and the elderly have pride but they have broken down a lot of the multigenerational family dynamics that used to exist similarly to their neighbours. Showing respect when talking to elders is different to being close to them and really caring for them. There is also just such an extreme aging population that there is no way to care for all of them.
- decafninja 2y ago
  As a Korean but with many Japanese friends (as well as cousins that live in Japan with a Japanese spouses), I noticed this too. Was this always the case historically, or is it a more recent phenomenon. Also, from what I observe, the child-parent relationship is starting to break down in Korea as well. Considering the demographic issues with low birth rates, I imagine my generation will have significant numbers of people without children to take care of them.
  - helboi4 2y ago
    I can't tell you how long it has been happening I don't know. But yeah I have plenty of Japanese friends who barely ever talk to their parents, let alone their grandparents. It's quite shocking.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Japanese culture valued the elderly a lot more than in the west, and therefore stuff like this would be funded by the government?

newsclues 2y ago

At scale (large population) doing any job to 100% is hard, even in Japan.

gedy 2y ago

Informally, Asian cultures lean on family a lot more for generational support than Anglo cultures, but when you have less/no children it's pretty harsh.

adev_ 2y ago

Pensions in Japan are divided in two systems: public and private. Which one you have depend of your job type. Public pensions are extremely low (~5600$/year). They are more a "survival minimal amount" for the elderly than a real retirement pension. There is also a phenomenon of pride among the elderlies in Japan: It is almost unthinkable for them to ask money to their children (At the opposite, doing so is pretty common in China or Korea). Considering this context and life conditions, it is no surprise that some elderly with the lowest pensions choose to turn into crime to try to overcome their situation. Their is a lesson the west should take here: Western countries birthrate follows the direction of Japan ones. Considering our pension schemes will become also at risk, we might encounter exactly the same situation in some decades.

smgit 2y ago
They will die natural deaths much earlier and peacefully without all kinds of mental/physical decline if beyond retirement age, they just stop taking any medication. Especially if they have no plan to do anything other than prolong their own lives for no reason. I can understand seniors who are active and have something going on in their lives. But if you spend time around hospitals/pharmacies the number of seniors who have nothing going on other than making hospital/pharmacy visits is ridiculous. Its like they are kept alive cause docs and pharma companies can keep them alive. Not for any other reason.
- silver_silver 2y ago
  You don’t have to have “something going on” for your life to be worth living or have value
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  Yes, antibiotics might be cheap but the cost is enormous.
- SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
  > But if you spend time around hospitals/pharmacies the number of seniors who have nothing going on other than making hospital/pharmacy visits is ridiculous. Who are you to say this, genuinely? If a person wants to refuse treatment, they are able to even if it would be fatal to them. If a person feels their life is still worth living, who are you to judge that and advocate for making the choice for them? I only bristle because this is also the logic to assume people who are severely disabled are better off dead without ever consulting them (a fact constantly fought against by severely disabled advocates like Alice Wong).
  - DontchaKnowit 2y ago
    I agree but there is also a pretty large subset of that elderly population that is like "I want to die. Please let me die" and then the nurse is like "ok sure Alice now take your pills"
- gcanyon 2y ago
  > the number of seniors who have nothing going on other than making hospital/pharmacy visits is ridiculous As someone who is part way down this slope, let me tell you: it's not like you're fine, you're fine, you're fine...BOOM! you spend your life going to the doctor. Instead, it starts with "I go to the doctor every few years because I remember to," to "I have this one thing that requires me to check in annually," to "I have to double-check the pills I'm taking in the morning to make sure I'm taking all the right ones," to "It seems like I always have 1-3 doctor appointments pending," to, I'm assuming, what you're describing. That makes it harder to pick the point where you should step onto the ice floe and wave good-bye to your family.
dismalaf 2y ago
> Considering our pension schemes will become also at risk, we might encounter exactly the same situation in some decades. Canada here. The maximum possible CPP (Canada Pension Plan) monthly payout is half the average rent for a 2 bedroom apartment across the country. It's funny, 20 years ago we were talking about boomers not having saved enough for retirement and worries around that... Now real estate has inflated so much that boomers are the wealthiest cohort and most retire by selling real estate then downsizing or renting...
- gruez 2y ago
  >Canada here. The maximum possible CPP (Canada Pension Plan) monthly payout is half the average rent for a 2 bedroom apartment across the country. 1. For cities or rural areas? If you're retired you don't really need to live close to a city center for a job. That'll reduce costs significantly. 2. Why would a retired person need 2 bedrooms?
  - Qem 2y ago
    > Why would a retired person need 2 bedrooms? To receive visiting relatives for a couple days. Also when they get sick or break a bone, and need 24/7 assistance for a couple weeks/months, having a second bedroom available is very helpful.
  - dismalaf 2y ago
    1. Country wide. In Toronto or Vancouver it's more like 3-4x. 2. Because 2 bedrooms are the most common type of unit so realistically that's the actual "average rent". Statistics that use single bedroom units are garbage because so few units exist.
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    The elderly probably need to live close(r) to healthcare facilities. The vast majority of chronic disease burden is concentrated into the last 10 years of life or so. Living in a rural area with few doctors in proximity means realistic risk of undetected cancer, or having a heart attack too far from an ICU etc., thus dying perhaps a decade earlier.

bell-cot 2y ago

Historically, and in theory, Japanese culture did and does value the elderly highly. In practical reality...especially in sustained poor economic times, with the "normal" shape of the population pyramid long gone, many families fall short of that ideal. The nice prison is funded by the government. Think of it as a social welfare program with an innovative barrier to those who do not truly need the help.

helboi4 2y ago

Japan has a pretty cold family culture compared to other nearby countries like China and Korea. They show respect for the eldery and the elderly have pride but they have broken down a lot of the multigenerational family dynamics that used to exist similarly to their neighbours. Showing respect when talking to elders is different to being close to them and really caring for them. There is also just such an extreme aging population that there is no way to care for all of them.

decafninja 2y ago
As a Korean but with many Japanese friends (as well as cousins that live in Japan with a Japanese spouses), I noticed this too. Was this always the case historically, or is it a more recent phenomenon. Also, from what I observe, the child-parent relationship is starting to break down in Korea as well. Considering the demographic issues with low birth rates, I imagine my generation will have significant numbers of people without children to take care of them.
- helboi4 2y ago
  I can't tell you how long it has been happening I don't know. But yeah I have plenty of Japanese friends who barely ever talk to their parents, let alone their grandparents. It's quite shocking.