4 ms·

I would like to understand your position. China doesn't allow US apps. If Chinese apps are allowed, then China has a big advantage over USA. Do you understand

I would like to understand your position. China doesn't allow US apps. If Chinese apps are allowed, then China has a big advantage over USA. Do you understand what kind of information can be derived from 150 million smart phones?

necovek 2y ago
One is a "bastion of democracy", and another is the "center of human rights violation". Would you not expect the rules to be different? If it's only about reciprocity and global hegemony, well then...
- unknownsky 2y ago
  Are you saying the United States is a bastion of democracy? It's not even classified as a full democracy. The list of full democracies are Canada, Austria, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Costa Rica, Uruguay, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, and Mauritius. United States is classified as a flawed democracy. Partly because sweeping decisions like this one are made by Supreme Court Justices who nobody voted for and who hold their position for life. Or maybe that's what you meant and you were being sarcastic with the quotation marks around "bastion of democracy"?
  - mirzap 2y ago
    In almost every country, the President or the Parliament selects Supreme Court Justices. In some countries, the President picks x, and the Parliament picks y. They don't have terms. Direct democracy does not make sense when selecting justices.
  - necovek 2y ago
    I am not making a statement, mostly portraying the official stance from the USA government that has just had their decision to ban TikTok come into effect. As in, due to their official stance, we should not expect reciprocity at all. But you did pique my curiosity, where did you get that list of "full democracies"?
    - macbr 2y ago
      Their source is the “The Economist Democracy Index” [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
  - pigeons 2y ago
    Canada has a king.
    - defrost 2y ago
      So? A number of democratic countries have residual symbolic figureheads.
      - pigeons 2y ago
        In Canada all laws the legislature passes have to be approved by the monarch or the monarch's representative. In Canada the monarch is the judicial branch. Ministers are appointed and dismissed by the monarch. Parliament can be adjourned by the monarch.
        defrost 2y ago
        Again, so? When was they last time these things weren't rubber stamped? What do you suppose would happen should the symbolic monarch not rubber stamp procedure? Why is it that Canada, et al are regarded in the world as "full democracies" whereas the US is ramked a bit lower as a "flawed democracy"? ( See: peer comment with wikipedia link to democratic rankings )
- Fnoord 2y ago
  Said 'bastion of democracy' is a flawd democracy [1] who voted in a president who allegedly (facepalm) initiated a coup and got away with it. Also, a convicted criminal. You could say it is a bastion of liberty but I'm from Europe and women here have reasonable abortion and sexuality rights. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Inde...
  - goatlover 2y ago
    Now do China.
    - Fnoord 2y ago
      Heh, agreed. But the derailing of USA is extremely worrying to me (the trend is downward), whereas with China it is a given I accepted.
- whoitwas 2y ago
  Bytedance chose this by not doing as requested. I wouldn't refer to USA as very democratic or China as a center of human rights violation. If there is no blanket ban, there would have to be many laws, rules, regulations and restrictions prohibiting the software from government buildings, etc. In addition to the data points: contacts, location, audio, video, etc, malicious actors can learn a lot through deduction. That's before any sort of manipulation.
- lmz 2y ago
  It may be a "bastion of democracy" but that says nothing about how it interferes with other countries. Democracy is only for citizens anyway.
lmz 2y ago
Is this supposed to be China only or should the rest of the world also be suspicious and ban e.g. Meta services especially since they don't have any competing service that is popular in the US?
- red_admiral 2y ago
  I presume meta is banned in China.
- darkwater 2y ago
  Oh but we are allies! The USA will never ever use the information gathered on allies for their own profit!
  - fulafel 2y ago
    Also Twitter (Trump/Musk) would never push for regime changes in Europe. (For anyone out of the loop, see https://www.dw.com/en/elon-musk-backs-far-right-afd-in-controversial-german-op-ed/a-71176801 https://www.dw.com/en/elon-musk-backs-far-right-afd-in-contr...)
    - imgabe 2y ago
      Stop. This is stupid. People are allowed to have opinions on politics in other countries. Every other country in the world sure as hell isn’t shy about opining on US elections. Then you want to act all indignant if the US opines on your elections? Fuck off.
      - fulafel 2y ago
        I was talking about what agendas the powers that control the TikTok/Twitter/Meta might have, not (only) protesting the opinion. And in this case they are known to be exceptionally ruthless and part of Trump's administration.
      - kalleboo 2y ago
        The thing is that Elon Musk is not just some guy with an opinion. He's some guy who has an opinion and owns a major social media platform where he tweaks the algorithm to serve his own purposes, similar to what TikTok is being accused of.
logicchains 2y ago
>If Chinese apps are allowed, then China has a big advantage over USA Historically speaking the biggest threat by far to the lives and livelihood of US citizens is the US government and corporate elite. Giving them more power to control what information the population can access is much more dangerous to the average American than giving the Chinese government some data.

necovek 2y ago

One is a "bastion of democracy", and another is the "center of human rights violation". Would you not expect the rules to be different? If it's only about reciprocity and global hegemony, well then...

unknownsky 2y ago
Are you saying the United States is a bastion of democracy? It's not even classified as a full democracy. The list of full democracies are Canada, Austria, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, Costa Rica, Uruguay, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, and Mauritius. United States is classified as a flawed democracy. Partly because sweeping decisions like this one are made by Supreme Court Justices who nobody voted for and who hold their position for life. Or maybe that's what you meant and you were being sarcastic with the quotation marks around "bastion of democracy"?
- mirzap 2y ago
  In almost every country, the President or the Parliament selects Supreme Court Justices. In some countries, the President picks x, and the Parliament picks y. They don't have terms. Direct democracy does not make sense when selecting justices.
- necovek 2y ago
  I am not making a statement, mostly portraying the official stance from the USA government that has just had their decision to ban TikTok come into effect. As in, due to their official stance, we should not expect reciprocity at all. But you did pique my curiosity, where did you get that list of "full democracies"?
  - macbr 2y ago
    Their source is the “The Economist Democracy Index” [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
- pigeons 2y ago
  Canada has a king.
  - defrost 2y ago
    So? A number of democratic countries have residual symbolic figureheads.
    - pigeons 2y ago
      In Canada all laws the legislature passes have to be approved by the monarch or the monarch's representative. In Canada the monarch is the judicial branch. Ministers are appointed and dismissed by the monarch. Parliament can be adjourned by the monarch.
      - defrost 2y ago
        Again, so? When was they last time these things weren't rubber stamped? What do you suppose would happen should the symbolic monarch not rubber stamp procedure? Why is it that Canada, et al are regarded in the world as "full democracies" whereas the US is ramked a bit lower as a "flawed democracy"? ( See: peer comment with wikipedia link to democratic rankings )
Fnoord 2y ago
Said 'bastion of democracy' is a flawd democracy [1] who voted in a president who allegedly (facepalm) initiated a coup and got away with it. Also, a convicted criminal. You could say it is a bastion of liberty but I'm from Europe and women here have reasonable abortion and sexuality rights. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Inde...
- goatlover 2y ago
  Now do China.
  - Fnoord 2y ago
    Heh, agreed. But the derailing of USA is extremely worrying to me (the trend is downward), whereas with China it is a given I accepted.
whoitwas 2y ago
Bytedance chose this by not doing as requested. I wouldn't refer to USA as very democratic or China as a center of human rights violation. If there is no blanket ban, there would have to be many laws, rules, regulations and restrictions prohibiting the software from government buildings, etc. In addition to the data points: contacts, location, audio, video, etc, malicious actors can learn a lot through deduction. That's before any sort of manipulation.
lmz 2y ago
It may be a "bastion of democracy" but that says nothing about how it interferes with other countries. Democracy is only for citizens anyway.

lmz 2y ago

Is this supposed to be China only or should the rest of the world also be suspicious and ban e.g. Meta services especially since they don't have any competing service that is popular in the US?

red_admiral 2y ago
I presume meta is banned in China.
darkwater 2y ago
Oh but we are allies! The USA will never ever use the information gathered on allies for their own profit!
- fulafel 2y ago
  Also Twitter (Trump/Musk) would never push for regime changes in Europe. (For anyone out of the loop, see https://www.dw.com/en/elon-musk-backs-far-right-afd-in-controversial-german-op-ed/a-71176801 https://www.dw.com/en/elon-musk-backs-far-right-afd-in-contr...)
  - imgabe 2y ago
    Stop. This is stupid. People are allowed to have opinions on politics in other countries. Every other country in the world sure as hell isn’t shy about opining on US elections. Then you want to act all indignant if the US opines on your elections? Fuck off.
    - fulafel 2y ago
      I was talking about what agendas the powers that control the TikTok/Twitter/Meta might have, not (only) protesting the opinion. And in this case they are known to be exceptionally ruthless and part of Trump's administration.
    - kalleboo 2y ago
      The thing is that Elon Musk is not just some guy with an opinion. He's some guy who has an opinion and owns a major social media platform where he tweaks the algorithm to serve his own purposes, similar to what TikTok is being accused of.

logicchains 2y ago

>If Chinese apps are allowed, then China has a big advantage over USA Historically speaking the biggest threat by far to the lives and livelihood of US citizens is the US government and corporate elite. Giving them more power to control what information the population can access is much more dangerous to the average American than giving the Chinese government some data.