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> to me this is the only important one. Not only can they subtely influence the entire us culture, if they were to get in trouble for it, then what? Suppose th

> to me this is the only important one. Not only can they subtely influence the entire us culture, if they were to get in trouble for it, then what? Suppose that is true. Then why are you ok with Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, or any other American oligarch wielding even more influence on US culture? When it comes down to it, it's just jingoism, isn't it? China man bad, America man good.

wilg 2y ago
no, it's reasonable for countries to want mass media their citizens use to be subject to their own government, especially when the country in question is an adversary, not a democracy, and not a particular beacon of free speech or human richts
polski-g 2y ago
Those individuals reside in the US, and are US citizens. They have first amendment rights to engage in those activities. Singaporean corporations controlled by the Chinese government in China does not have FA rights.
9dev 2y ago
That makes little sense. Why would a country be equally afraid of the influence of its citizens compared to a foreign, authoritarian regime with opposing interest? Given the choice, naturally you’ll be on the side of your own people rather than the others.
- 6P58r3MXJSLi 2y ago
  > Given the choice I would chose China, which is on the other side of the globe, has no military bases in my country (USA have 3! two of them with nuclear capabilities) and probably what they gather from me make little or no sense to them and can't really influence me the same way (not even close to it) content in my language, repeated day and night from the top government bodies to the least popular piece of media that then spread from mouth to mouth and becomes a discussion topic at family gatherings, can. No way tik tok remotely has that power, no way China could really do anything like that, they can at most insinuate through the cracks already present in our contemporary societies hoping it will work, but banning tik tok will only widen them. It's one of those situation where having a common enemy should reunite people with opposing views, but it's not evil aliens trying to conquer earth we are fighting, it's social content (mostly entertainment) that this time will take people with opposing views even more apart.
  - 9dev 2y ago
    And that’s where you’re dead wrong. TikTok is a vessel for any kind of content, with no visibility into the reason why a specific kind of information is displayed to whom. Just think of Field Manual 30-31B if you doubt this capability could be put to good use in a propaganda campaign, if necessary. Sometimes, public opinion can be swayed very easily, by igniting the first spark with something outrageous; this is especially fruitful in times where the president of the United States openly opposes journalism, spreads lies, and generally fosters distrust and doubt. Lots of people are more inclined to believe a random TikTok than a professional journalist with decades of experience; what do you think were to happen if the Chinese government sees immediate value in the US government making a specific decision to their benefit, and one of the tools in their toolbox is playing a flurry of short videos to millions of American citizens, made to influence their understanding of an issue? Most people will follow a reasonable opinion if it's the first time they're confronted with a complex situation. TiktTok is the perfect tool to exploit this, by delivering this opinion to absurdly narrow target groups, in a matter of seconds. Just because you don't notice this right now does neither mean the capability doesn't exist nor that it isn't already happening—which may be one of the reasons there is a bipartisan effort to pull through.
    - 6P58r3MXJSLi 2y ago
      > is a vessel for any kind of content, with no visibility into the reason why a specific kind of information is displayed to whom and that makes it different from IG, Facebook, X, YouTube (etc etc) how exactly?
      - 9dev 2y ago
        That China is a totalitarian regime, and the USA (at least for now) is a democracy. With all due criticism, there are still checks and balances in place in the US that make it a very different place. We're not talking about an objectively "correct" decision here, but what is in the best interest of the USA and its allies, and that certainly makes a difference when it comes to foreign influence on the own populace. All that being said: American Tech companies are dangerous in their own right, and nothing in my post was defending these either. But that doesn't make TikTok less of a threat.
- bjourne 2y ago
  Well, you write that it "makes little sense" then you argue that the maxim "China man bad, America man good" makes total sense...
  - 9dev 2y ago
    No, then you didn't read it properly. I argue for "I trust my people more than my enemy", which doesn't sound quite as dumb and is something most people would probably agree with.
    - bjourne 2y ago
      Yes, I did read it properly, just like the above comment. You claim Chinese people as your enemy because your rulers told you so. That is very much jingoism and very much on the path to fascism. Sorry that you can't think for yourself.
      - 9dev 2y ago
        I do not claim anyone my enemy, for I am not an American at all. I do, however, see the situation for what it is; the USA and China are political superpowers with opposing interest. Pretending like the world is a peaceful place is just a fantasy. Hence, you can’t just ignore a communication tool used by half the population in your strategic considerations. That is not racism, it’s not fascism, its pragmatism in the face of something very powerful that could well be abused.
aib 2y ago
Exactly. They want _their_ oligarchs controlling their 99.(9)%. This ban is as close as you can get to open admittance.
red_admiral 2y ago
> China man bad, America man good. America man friend of president.
sensanaty 2y ago
I'm not a yank (Serbian but I live in NL), but I'd rather neither. However, since we live in reality land and not make-believe land, that's not an option, so I'd go for the oiligarch from my own country rather than, say, a Russian or Chinese one having influence over the people in my country. Not wanting authoritarian shitholes to have influence on people isn't really all that crazy of a stance, IMO, even if the world isn't perfect and shitheads like Zucc have similar influence.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  Elon Musk is currently using his massive platform to promote neo-Nazis in Germany and far-right political parties throughout Europe. Twitter is a far greater danger to Europe than TikTok is.
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    And that should be stopped too, but we also just had a bout of Russian campaigns that almost got a cultist Neo-Nazi elected in Romania thanks to tiktok. Ban 'em both for all I care, my whole point is that pretending as if the west is being evil or whatever for banning these obvious propaganda channels is absurd to me
    - 6P58r3MXJSLi 2y ago
      > almost got a cultist Neo-Nazi elected in Romania thanks to tiktok. please stop spreading lies. The Romanian supreme court presented no evidence and instead cancelled the election results while the election were still going on (citizen living abroad were still voting) It was just an excuse to stop something NATO did not like from happening and I am saying it as a very left leaning person, anti-fascist and anti-Putin. What happened in Romania is a pure and simple coup d'etat with no military intervention. Besides: if tik tok could really win elections in EU, it means our democracies aren't remotely as strong as we like to believe. And if that's true, imagine what the US can do, having by far the largest budget for these kinds of operations in the entire World.

wilg 2y ago

no, it's reasonable for countries to want mass media their citizens use to be subject to their own government, especially when the country in question is an adversary, not a democracy, and not a particular beacon of free speech or human richts

polski-g 2y ago

Those individuals reside in the US, and are US citizens. They have first amendment rights to engage in those activities. Singaporean corporations controlled by the Chinese government in China does not have FA rights.

9dev 2y ago

That makes little sense. Why would a country be equally afraid of the influence of its citizens compared to a foreign, authoritarian regime with opposing interest? Given the choice, naturally you’ll be on the side of your own people rather than the others.

6P58r3MXJSLi 2y ago
> Given the choice I would chose China, which is on the other side of the globe, has no military bases in my country (USA have 3! two of them with nuclear capabilities) and probably what they gather from me make little or no sense to them and can't really influence me the same way (not even close to it) content in my language, repeated day and night from the top government bodies to the least popular piece of media that then spread from mouth to mouth and becomes a discussion topic at family gatherings, can. No way tik tok remotely has that power, no way China could really do anything like that, they can at most insinuate through the cracks already present in our contemporary societies hoping it will work, but banning tik tok will only widen them. It's one of those situation where having a common enemy should reunite people with opposing views, but it's not evil aliens trying to conquer earth we are fighting, it's social content (mostly entertainment) that this time will take people with opposing views even more apart.
- 9dev 2y ago
  And that’s where you’re dead wrong. TikTok is a vessel for any kind of content, with no visibility into the reason why a specific kind of information is displayed to whom. Just think of Field Manual 30-31B if you doubt this capability could be put to good use in a propaganda campaign, if necessary. Sometimes, public opinion can be swayed very easily, by igniting the first spark with something outrageous; this is especially fruitful in times where the president of the United States openly opposes journalism, spreads lies, and generally fosters distrust and doubt. Lots of people are more inclined to believe a random TikTok than a professional journalist with decades of experience; what do you think were to happen if the Chinese government sees immediate value in the US government making a specific decision to their benefit, and one of the tools in their toolbox is playing a flurry of short videos to millions of American citizens, made to influence their understanding of an issue? Most people will follow a reasonable opinion if it's the first time they're confronted with a complex situation. TiktTok is the perfect tool to exploit this, by delivering this opinion to absurdly narrow target groups, in a matter of seconds. Just because you don't notice this right now does neither mean the capability doesn't exist nor that it isn't already happening—which may be one of the reasons there is a bipartisan effort to pull through.
  - 6P58r3MXJSLi 2y ago
    > is a vessel for any kind of content, with no visibility into the reason why a specific kind of information is displayed to whom and that makes it different from IG, Facebook, X, YouTube (etc etc) how exactly?
    - 9dev 2y ago
      That China is a totalitarian regime, and the USA (at least for now) is a democracy. With all due criticism, there are still checks and balances in place in the US that make it a very different place. We're not talking about an objectively "correct" decision here, but what is in the best interest of the USA and its allies, and that certainly makes a difference when it comes to foreign influence on the own populace. All that being said: American Tech companies are dangerous in their own right, and nothing in my post was defending these either. But that doesn't make TikTok less of a threat.
bjourne 2y ago
Well, you write that it "makes little sense" then you argue that the maxim "China man bad, America man good" makes total sense...
- 9dev 2y ago
  No, then you didn't read it properly. I argue for "I trust my people more than my enemy", which doesn't sound quite as dumb and is something most people would probably agree with.
  - bjourne 2y ago
    Yes, I did read it properly, just like the above comment. You claim Chinese people as your enemy because your rulers told you so. That is very much jingoism and very much on the path to fascism. Sorry that you can't think for yourself.
    - 9dev 2y ago
      I do not claim anyone my enemy, for I am not an American at all. I do, however, see the situation for what it is; the USA and China are political superpowers with opposing interest. Pretending like the world is a peaceful place is just a fantasy. Hence, you can’t just ignore a communication tool used by half the population in your strategic considerations. That is not racism, it’s not fascism, its pragmatism in the face of something very powerful that could well be abused.

aib 2y ago

Exactly. They want _their_ oligarchs controlling their 99.(9)%. This ban is as close as you can get to open admittance.

red_admiral 2y ago

> China man bad, America man good. America man friend of president.

sensanaty 2y ago

I'm not a yank (Serbian but I live in NL), but I'd rather neither. However, since we live in reality land and not make-believe land, that's not an option, so I'd go for the oiligarch from my own country rather than, say, a Russian or Chinese one having influence over the people in my country. Not wanting authoritarian shitholes to have influence on people isn't really all that crazy of a stance, IMO, even if the world isn't perfect and shitheads like Zucc have similar influence.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
Elon Musk is currently using his massive platform to promote neo-Nazis in Germany and far-right political parties throughout Europe. Twitter is a far greater danger to Europe than TikTok is.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  And that should be stopped too, but we also just had a bout of Russian campaigns that almost got a cultist Neo-Nazi elected in Romania thanks to tiktok. Ban 'em both for all I care, my whole point is that pretending as if the west is being evil or whatever for banning these obvious propaganda channels is absurd to me
  - 6P58r3MXJSLi 2y ago
    > almost got a cultist Neo-Nazi elected in Romania thanks to tiktok. please stop spreading lies. The Romanian supreme court presented no evidence and instead cancelled the election results while the election were still going on (citizen living abroad were still voting) It was just an excuse to stop something NATO did not like from happening and I am saying it as a very left leaning person, anti-fascist and anti-Putin. What happened in Romania is a pure and simple coup d'etat with no military intervention. Besides: if tik tok could really win elections in EU, it means our democracies aren't remotely as strong as we like to believe. And if that's true, imagine what the US can do, having by far the largest budget for these kinds of operations in the entire World.