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I largely agree, but it is odd to write that column and not mention Mastodon/ActivityPub. On one hand, it is another alternative if Bluesky falls, but on the o

by crznp 2y ago

I largely agree, but it is odd to write that column and not mention Mastodon/ActivityPub. On one hand, it is another alternative if Bluesky falls, but on the other hand I feel like the algorithm makes it a different sort of community.

CharlesW 2y ago
> I largely agree, but it is odd to write that column and not mention Mastodon/ActivityPub. Is that an omission, or is that because Mastodon is already in the process of "establishing a new legal home for Mastodon and transferring ownership and stewardship"¹, and because ActivityPub was published as a W3C Recommendation back in 2018? ¹ https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2025/01/the-people-should-own-the-town-square/ https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2025/01/the-people-should-own-...
verdverm 2y ago
Mastadon is too complicated for your average, non-technical user. There is also the issue that your account is tied to a specific server and migration means you lose your followers. Discovery and server DDoS on a viral post are also challenges for the way ActivityPub was architected. ATProto is still young, even compared to ActivityPub. It will continue to evolve and improve. It certainly has the momentum compared to ActivityPub
- BeetleB 2y ago
  > Mastadon is too complicated for your average, non-technical user. The only headache is picking the server. If I pick one for them it's pretty smooth sailing from there. If someone can't handle the basic interface, there's a really really high chance he doesn't have much of value to say. The problem isn't that it's "complicated". It's that they have no incentive to sign up. As much as the HN crowd hates it, ads and marketing work. People went to Bluesky not because it's easier but because several famous people talked about it loudly and everyone knows the people behind the original Twitter are behind it. Marketing.
  - verdverm 2y ago
    The problem I've heard others bring up is that you pick a server, then later the moderation policies of the admins changes. You can either deal with it or start over again on another server. Losing all your followers is why people put up with bad social media overlords. ATProto removes the switching cost. This is a significant difference from ActivityPub
    - clot27 2y ago
      I mean, isnt the default server on ATP also managed by a corpo? So what if they change the rule? they dont even have option to migrate account
      - verdverm 2y ago
        Bluesky has an initial PDS anyone can run, available on their github. Last I checked they said not to host more than 10 accounts during the beta testing. You can absolutely migrate your account and still use the Bluesky app. The custom server is an option at login https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
      - numpad0 2y ago
        Level of de-centralization Bluesky has is somewhere between the old Twitter and Ethereum, neither of which have strong resistance against central decision making. The problem discussed here is that Mastodon is not simply de-centralized, but its superstructure upholds a segregation policy and loves to ostracize admins based on, ahem, preferences. This in turn encourage admins to join a virtue signaling zeitgeist, and towards assuming more divisive and dismissive stances, out of fear. As a second order effect, regular non-admin users and their ability to communicate would be not only at whim of the server owner but also that of the inner group cast towards the admin. Bluesky doesn't have this type of problem, precisely because it's not too decentralized. Either you individually get banned or not, based on levels of value alignment between you and the corpo outsourced moderators. There are also blocklist feature as well as third party voluntarily applicable moderation framework in Bluesky, but personally I can't imagine majority of users using it, or dividing the network into fragmented subgroups, and are non-factors in the grand scheme of things. (By the way, I sometimes wonder how moderator value alignment is going to inevitably drift over time; as I understand it, social media content moderation is partially automated and exploitatively outsourced to workers from low income regions, such as sub-Saharan Africa. This phenomenon is almost exclusively discussed in context of human rights and fair worker treatment, but I think this also means a lot of people with minimal prior exposure to media, let alone the anaerobic layer of the Internet, are being trained to develop preferences on such content and especially the more flaggable yet less hateful and flaggable-but-less-flag-deserving content. i.e. stimulative but not blood and gore. If anyone is reading down to this line, you know what I mean.)
- clot27 2y ago
  You can migrate your account on masto without loosing followers https://fedi.tips/transferring-your-mastodon-account-to-another-server/ https://fedi.tips/transferring-your-mastodon-account-to-anot...
  - verdverm 2y ago
    You can, but as that document makes clear, it is very complicated to move an account and to do it right.
    - treyd 2y ago
      It's really not complicated, that article is just being excessively verbose for clarity. The UI itself explains it very well, it takes just a couple of minutes to log into both servers and set up the transfer.
- aiono 2y ago
  After you pick a server is there anything else that makes it hard?

by crznp 2y ago

CharlesW 2y ago

> I largely agree, but it is odd to write that column and not mention Mastodon/ActivityPub. Is that an omission, or is that because Mastodon is already in the process of "establishing a new legal home for Mastodon and transferring ownership and stewardship"¹, and because ActivityPub was published as a W3C Recommendation back in 2018? ¹ https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2025/01/the-people-should-own-the-town-square/ https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2025/01/the-people-should-own-...

verdverm 2y ago

Mastadon is too complicated for your average, non-technical user. There is also the issue that your account is tied to a specific server and migration means you lose your followers. Discovery and server DDoS on a viral post are also challenges for the way ActivityPub was architected. ATProto is still young, even compared to ActivityPub. It will continue to evolve and improve. It certainly has the momentum compared to ActivityPub

BeetleB 2y ago
> Mastadon is too complicated for your average, non-technical user. The only headache is picking the server. If I pick one for them it's pretty smooth sailing from there. If someone can't handle the basic interface, there's a really really high chance he doesn't have much of value to say. The problem isn't that it's "complicated". It's that they have no incentive to sign up. As much as the HN crowd hates it, ads and marketing work. People went to Bluesky not because it's easier but because several famous people talked about it loudly and everyone knows the people behind the original Twitter are behind it. Marketing.
- verdverm 2y ago
  The problem I've heard others bring up is that you pick a server, then later the moderation policies of the admins changes. You can either deal with it or start over again on another server. Losing all your followers is why people put up with bad social media overlords. ATProto removes the switching cost. This is a significant difference from ActivityPub
  - clot27 2y ago
    I mean, isnt the default server on ATP also managed by a corpo? So what if they change the rule? they dont even have option to migrate account
    - verdverm 2y ago
      Bluesky has an initial PDS anyone can run, available on their github. Last I checked they said not to host more than 10 accounts during the beta testing. You can absolutely migrate your account and still use the Bluesky app. The custom server is an option at login https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds https://github.com/bluesky-social/pds
    - numpad0 2y ago
      Level of de-centralization Bluesky has is somewhere between the old Twitter and Ethereum, neither of which have strong resistance against central decision making. The problem discussed here is that Mastodon is not simply de-centralized, but its superstructure upholds a segregation policy and loves to ostracize admins based on, ahem, preferences. This in turn encourage admins to join a virtue signaling zeitgeist, and towards assuming more divisive and dismissive stances, out of fear. As a second order effect, regular non-admin users and their ability to communicate would be not only at whim of the server owner but also that of the inner group cast towards the admin. Bluesky doesn't have this type of problem, precisely because it's not too decentralized. Either you individually get banned or not, based on levels of value alignment between you and the corpo outsourced moderators. There are also blocklist feature as well as third party voluntarily applicable moderation framework in Bluesky, but personally I can't imagine majority of users using it, or dividing the network into fragmented subgroups, and are non-factors in the grand scheme of things. (By the way, I sometimes wonder how moderator value alignment is going to inevitably drift over time; as I understand it, social media content moderation is partially automated and exploitatively outsourced to workers from low income regions, such as sub-Saharan Africa. This phenomenon is almost exclusively discussed in context of human rights and fair worker treatment, but I think this also means a lot of people with minimal prior exposure to media, let alone the anaerobic layer of the Internet, are being trained to develop preferences on such content and especially the more flaggable yet less hateful and flaggable-but-less-flag-deserving content. i.e. stimulative but not blood and gore. If anyone is reading down to this line, you know what I mean.)
clot27 2y ago
You can migrate your account on masto without loosing followers https://fedi.tips/transferring-your-mastodon-account-to-another-server/ https://fedi.tips/transferring-your-mastodon-account-to-anot...
- verdverm 2y ago
  You can, but as that document makes clear, it is very complicated to move an account and to do it right.
  - treyd 2y ago
    It's really not complicated, that article is just being excessively verbose for clarity. The UI itself explains it very well, it takes just a couple of minutes to log into both servers and set up the transfer.
aiono 2y ago
After you pick a server is there anything else that makes it hard?