3 ms·

Side note: why do people still say free as in beer? Do people not assume free automatically means price, unless there’s a qualifier?

seanw444 2y ago
Within the programmer circle, "free software" implies FOSS, which is something more than just no-cost. A normie would assume free in cost though.
- lukan 2y ago
  But the world is made up of normies and has no idea about the free software movement. And I believe the free software movement is lamenting that? Maybe clear communication would work better? Use words in a meaning, people understand intuitivly?
  - marky1991 2y ago
    Are you complaining because the phrase "free as in beer" is too clear? I don't understand your position at all.
    - lukan 2y ago
      My position is questioning the PR work of the free software movement. Or do you think it is in best possible shape?
      - marky1991 2y ago
        I don't understand, I don't see the connection between these phrases and PR. If they didn't call it "free software" (which then, it seems to me, forces you to distinguish between the two senses of free), what would you have recommended they call it? Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better alternative. (Libre is nice, but I think most people would probably get that worse, not better) Obviously nothing is perfect, but this criticism doesn't make sense to me.
        lukan 2y ago
        I recommend to call it free software, but just get rid of the disclaimers. Also free as in beer. (That doesn't mean making beer is free, same as software, so I don't see the need to complicate simple things here)
  - em-bee 2y ago
    the world using made up of normies, but hacker news isn't. so here a clarification is absolutely necessary. and which english word would you suggest intuitively communicates the meaning of free as in free to modify and share? there isn't one because the concept itself is unfamiliar to most people.
    - BlueTemplar 2y ago
      Libre is technically not an English word, but hopefully understandable enough ?
    - lukan 2y ago
      "free as in free to modify and share" If you add a free to use, I would agree. For me it has both meanings. And in your definition it is kind of implicated, but in others not necessarily. " To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer.” We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis." The last part is bothering me. Because yes, de facto it means free as in beer. I don't have to pay money to download the source and run my own version, except paying for my infrastructure.
      - em-bee 2y ago
        de facto it means free as in beer but it shouldn't, that's one of the problems. developers need to be paid. more and more projects are in trouble because of this expectation that i don't need to pay for libre software.
  - smolder 2y ago
    If I said "free dogs" does it mean I'm giving away dogs for free or are demanding that they be freed? Maybe referring to dogs that have escaped captivity? It doesn't hurt to disambiguate, particularly in the context where you chose to take issue with it.
    - lukan 2y ago
      It is all about context. A "free dogs" sign at a dog shelter would indicate them giving them away for free (they usually don't intentionally). (And still your own cost of transporting etc) A "free dogs" sign on a protestors slogan outside a dog breeding for food factory, probaly something different. In context of software, free software creates the expection free of cost mostly. And by now slowly and slowly, also free to do what I want. Sort of. Because there is this ideological battle of what is more freedom, free also to comercialize again, or is more freedom to allow anything? And that battle and different definitions, is pretty confusing to outsiders. The GNU version I don't like for that reason. "To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer.” We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis." It makes things confusing without need. Result is, outsiders don't help so much or want to get involved.
      - marky1991 2y ago
        I don't get it. If you explicitly acknowledge that"free software" is ambiguous, how does clarifying it by adding (free as in beer/speech) make things more confusing, instead of less? The whole point is that the phrase "free software" has nothing to do with money. It almost seems like you want to make things simpler by just merging the two concepts. But that's fundamentally not what the movement is about.
        lukan 2y ago
        "The whole point is that the phrase "free software" has nothing to do with money" But it does in reality.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > But the world is made up of normies HN generally does though, and that's why I said it here. > Maybe clear communication would work better? It was clear.

seanw444 2y ago

Within the programmer circle, "free software" implies FOSS, which is something more than just no-cost. A normie would assume free in cost though.

lukan 2y ago
But the world is made up of normies and has no idea about the free software movement. And I believe the free software movement is lamenting that? Maybe clear communication would work better? Use words in a meaning, people understand intuitivly?
- marky1991 2y ago
  Are you complaining because the phrase "free as in beer" is too clear? I don't understand your position at all.
  - lukan 2y ago
    My position is questioning the PR work of the free software movement. Or do you think it is in best possible shape?
    - marky1991 2y ago
      I don't understand, I don't see the connection between these phrases and PR. If they didn't call it "free software" (which then, it seems to me, forces you to distinguish between the two senses of free), what would you have recommended they call it? Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better alternative. (Libre is nice, but I think most people would probably get that worse, not better) Obviously nothing is perfect, but this criticism doesn't make sense to me.
      - lukan 2y ago
        I recommend to call it free software, but just get rid of the disclaimers. Also free as in beer. (That doesn't mean making beer is free, same as software, so I don't see the need to complicate simple things here)
- em-bee 2y ago
  the world using made up of normies, but hacker news isn't. so here a clarification is absolutely necessary. and which english word would you suggest intuitively communicates the meaning of free as in free to modify and share? there isn't one because the concept itself is unfamiliar to most people.
  - BlueTemplar 2y ago
    Libre is technically not an English word, but hopefully understandable enough ?
  - lukan 2y ago
    "free as in free to modify and share" If you add a free to use, I would agree. For me it has both meanings. And in your definition it is kind of implicated, but in others not necessarily. " To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer.” We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis." The last part is bothering me. Because yes, de facto it means free as in beer. I don't have to pay money to download the source and run my own version, except paying for my infrastructure.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      de facto it means free as in beer but it shouldn't, that's one of the problems. developers need to be paid. more and more projects are in trouble because of this expectation that i don't need to pay for libre software.
- smolder 2y ago
  If I said "free dogs" does it mean I'm giving away dogs for free or are demanding that they be freed? Maybe referring to dogs that have escaped captivity? It doesn't hurt to disambiguate, particularly in the context where you chose to take issue with it.
  - lukan 2y ago
    It is all about context. A "free dogs" sign at a dog shelter would indicate them giving them away for free (they usually don't intentionally). (And still your own cost of transporting etc) A "free dogs" sign on a protestors slogan outside a dog breeding for food factory, probaly something different. In context of software, free software creates the expection free of cost mostly. And by now slowly and slowly, also free to do what I want. Sort of. Because there is this ideological battle of what is more freedom, free also to comercialize again, or is more freedom to allow anything? And that battle and different definitions, is pretty confusing to outsiders. The GNU version I don't like for that reason. "To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free beer.” We sometimes call it “libre software,” borrowing the French or Spanish word for “free” as in freedom, to show we do not mean the software is gratis." It makes things confusing without need. Result is, outsiders don't help so much or want to get involved.
    - marky1991 2y ago
      I don't get it. If you explicitly acknowledge that"free software" is ambiguous, how does clarifying it by adding (free as in beer/speech) make things more confusing, instead of less? The whole point is that the phrase "free software" has nothing to do with money. It almost seems like you want to make things simpler by just merging the two concepts. But that's fundamentally not what the movement is about.
      - lukan 2y ago
        "The whole point is that the phrase "free software" has nothing to do with money" But it does in reality.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > But the world is made up of normies HN generally does though, and that's why I said it here. > Maybe clear communication would work better? It was clear.