5 ms·

So matrix is commercialized now and the "real" software version is as expensive as Slack/Rocket? That's really disappointing...

robertlagrant 2y ago
Is there an alternative? Can you set up your own server and it's free (as in beer)?
- dsr_ 2y ago
  Yes. The article is about how a particular open source Matrix server implementation isn't suitable for millions of simultaneous users, and you should pay for the non-open-source version. But if you are merely handling tens of thousands of users, no problem. And if you have the budget to handle millions of users, maybe you have the budget to pay development as well as operations staff?
- tetrisgm 2y ago
  Side note: why do people still say free as in beer? Do people not assume free automatically means price, unless there’s a qualifier?
  - seanw444 2y ago
    Within the programmer circle, "free software" implies FOSS, which is something more than just no-cost. A normie would assume free in cost though.
    - lukan 2y ago
      But the world is made up of normies and has no idea about the free software movement. And I believe the free software movement is lamenting that? Maybe clear communication would work better? Use words in a meaning, people understand intuitivly?
      - marky1991 2y ago
        Are you complaining because the phrase "free as in beer" is too clear? I don't understand your position at all.
        lukan 2y ago
        My position is questioning the PR work of the free software movement. Or do you think it is in best possible shape?
        marky1991 2y ago
        I don't understand, I don't see the connection between these phrases and PR. If they didn't call it "free software" (which then, it seems to me, forces you to distinguish between the two senses of free), what would you have recommended they call it? Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better alternative. (Libre is nice, but I think most people would probably get that worse, not better) Obviously nothing is perfect, but this criticism doesn't make sense to me.
        lukan 2y ago
        I recommend to call it free software, but just get rid of the disclaimers. Also free as in beer. (That doesn't mean making beer is free, same as software, so I don't see the need to complicate simple things here)
      - em-bee 2y ago
        the world using made up of normies, but hacker news isn't. so here a clarification is absolutely necessary. and which english word would you suggest intuitively communicates the meaning of free as in free to modify and share? there isn't one because the concept itself is unfamiliar to most people.
        BlueTemplar 2y ago
        Libre is technically not an English word, but hopefully understandable enough ?
- zaik 2y ago
  A standard XMPP server could be an alternative. Apparently WhatsApp (~2 billion users) use a fork of ejabberd as their backend.
  - toast0 2y ago
    I wouldn't really call it a fork. I'd say WhatsApp started with ejabberd and ended up reimplementing it over time. ejabberd is a good place to start an xmpp chat service. Facebook messenger was built on it, WhatsApp was built on it, Riot Games chat was built on it. I'm sure there's others. If you attract enough users, you might end up needing to modify it for your needs, but that's a nice problem to have. There's a fair amount of presentations at tech events with bits and pieces of infra knowledge from FB, WA, and I think Riot Games. Although some of that is fairly obsolete... You don't need to work as hard to scale Erlang today, the BEAM is a lot more scalable out of the box in 2025 than it was in 2011, and you can also have a single host with a lot more ram and compute today too.
    - mickael 2y ago
      Yes, I confirm you can build the same starting from ejabberd. A lot of changes are related to the ability to scale horizontally only some subcomponents, to fine tune the processing power, and also things that are related purely to Whatsapp infrastructure.
Arathorn 2y ago
Matrix is an open protocol and is 100% open. Synapse is a server implementation of Matrix and is open source under AGPL. Synapse Pro is some alternative new worker implementations for Synapse designed to let enormous deployments scale rather than run out of headroom. Those happen to be proprietary. FOSS Synapse is still the same project, and the main “real” project, and is still FOSS, same as it ever was.
- snvzz 2y ago
  A shame about naming. If Synapse "Pro" isn't synapse, it should really be called something else.
  - Arathorn 2y ago
    starting to wonder if it should be “Element acceleration libs for Synapse workers” or something instead.
mickael 2y ago
I do not understand who could deploy a nationwide chat and support those costs.

robertlagrant 2y ago

Is there an alternative? Can you set up your own server and it's free (as in beer)?

dsr_ 2y ago
Yes. The article is about how a particular open source Matrix server implementation isn't suitable for millions of simultaneous users, and you should pay for the non-open-source version. But if you are merely handling tens of thousands of users, no problem. And if you have the budget to handle millions of users, maybe you have the budget to pay development as well as operations staff?
tetrisgm 2y ago
Side note: why do people still say free as in beer? Do people not assume free automatically means price, unless there’s a qualifier?
- seanw444 2y ago
  Within the programmer circle, "free software" implies FOSS, which is something more than just no-cost. A normie would assume free in cost though.
  - lukan 2y ago
    But the world is made up of normies and has no idea about the free software movement. And I believe the free software movement is lamenting that? Maybe clear communication would work better? Use words in a meaning, people understand intuitivly?
    - marky1991 2y ago
      Are you complaining because the phrase "free as in beer" is too clear? I don't understand your position at all.
      - lukan 2y ago
        My position is questioning the PR work of the free software movement. Or do you think it is in best possible shape?
        marky1991 2y ago
        I don't understand, I don't see the connection between these phrases and PR. If they didn't call it "free software" (which then, it seems to me, forces you to distinguish between the two senses of free), what would you have recommended they call it? Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better alternative. (Libre is nice, but I think most people would probably get that worse, not better) Obviously nothing is perfect, but this criticism doesn't make sense to me.
        lukan 2y ago
        I recommend to call it free software, but just get rid of the disclaimers. Also free as in beer. (That doesn't mean making beer is free, same as software, so I don't see the need to complicate simple things here)
    - em-bee 2y ago
      the world using made up of normies, but hacker news isn't. so here a clarification is absolutely necessary. and which english word would you suggest intuitively communicates the meaning of free as in free to modify and share? there isn't one because the concept itself is unfamiliar to most people.
      - BlueTemplar 2y ago
        Libre is technically not an English word, but hopefully understandable enough ?
zaik 2y ago
A standard XMPP server could be an alternative. Apparently WhatsApp (~2 billion users) use a fork of ejabberd as their backend.
- toast0 2y ago
  I wouldn't really call it a fork. I'd say WhatsApp started with ejabberd and ended up reimplementing it over time. ejabberd is a good place to start an xmpp chat service. Facebook messenger was built on it, WhatsApp was built on it, Riot Games chat was built on it. I'm sure there's others. If you attract enough users, you might end up needing to modify it for your needs, but that's a nice problem to have. There's a fair amount of presentations at tech events with bits and pieces of infra knowledge from FB, WA, and I think Riot Games. Although some of that is fairly obsolete... You don't need to work as hard to scale Erlang today, the BEAM is a lot more scalable out of the box in 2025 than it was in 2011, and you can also have a single host with a lot more ram and compute today too.
  - mickael 2y ago
    Yes, I confirm you can build the same starting from ejabberd. A lot of changes are related to the ability to scale horizontally only some subcomponents, to fine tune the processing power, and also things that are related purely to Whatsapp infrastructure.

Arathorn 2y ago

Matrix is an open protocol and is 100% open. Synapse is a server implementation of Matrix and is open source under AGPL. Synapse Pro is some alternative new worker implementations for Synapse designed to let enormous deployments scale rather than run out of headroom. Those happen to be proprietary. FOSS Synapse is still the same project, and the main “real” project, and is still FOSS, same as it ever was.

snvzz 2y ago
A shame about naming. If Synapse "Pro" isn't synapse, it should really be called something else.
- Arathorn 2y ago
  starting to wonder if it should be “Element acceleration libs for Synapse workers” or something instead.

mickael 2y ago

I do not understand who could deploy a nationwide chat and support those costs.