5 ms·

I don't like this idea. There are already many places on the net to find out about hacking. But this is the only place I've found for good stories about startup

by dean 19y ago

I don't like this idea. There are already many places on the net to find out about hacking. But this is the only place I've found for good stories about startups (of course, I stopped looking after I found this place). From what I can see, there is much more to a startup than hacking. And there are more kinds of people involved with startups than hackers. It is a disservice to the startup community to change the focus here. Besides, this site already has somewhat of a hacker focus anyway. Look at these items from the top-ten at this moment: #3 Coding Horror: Discipline Makes Strong Developers #5 Blueprint is a CSS framework #6 How to be a Programmer: A Short, Comprehensive, and Personal Summary #9 We are living in someone else's computer simulation Not exactly business ideas. And while you may be bored with reading this site, I don't see you as the typical audience here. I see this site as being for people who are in startups or thinking about doing a startup and who want to learn as much as they can. Not for people who've already been through it and already know all this stuff, like yourself. Even if Startup News began as your baby, I think you have to let it go. In short I think your initial premise is wrong. Just because you're bored, doesn't mean everyone else is bored too.

zcoelius 19y ago
Second what Dean said. Lots of good hacker news places. Very few good early stage startup stuff. Too conflate what YC was with TC is silly. TC is a profile site. YC.news gathers helpful articles on how make your startup better. I'll miss YC news if it becomes just another programmer site.
- Goladus 19y ago
  I think this will still be about making startups better, except in the sense that "better" doesn't always mean short-term present-day details.
BrandonM 19y ago
Why does any of that matter? This is PG's free site, which he has invested his time in and has asked nothing back for. Who are you to call anything associated with this site a "disservice"? That is patently absurd. If you are not happy with this site anymore, you are free to go start your own. You should not be free, however, to sit idly by and condemn the decisions of those who are aiming to make progress.
- pg 19y ago
  No, users do have a right to complain. Any site purporting to offer a service ought to try to make users happy. And this site isn't just a personal project. It's part of YC. So I ought to be able to claim that this change will benefit the people our site is for. And I do think that. YC specifically targets more hackerly founders, and I think they want to read about more than just startups.
  - BrandonM 19y ago
    And I totally agree (that hackerly founders want to read about more than just startups); that's why I'm still here. I just took exception to the strong language of calling anything that you decide to do with your site a "disservice". I don't know, maybe a big part of it is that I've been reading Atlas Shrugged lately (in my opinion, the most important work of modern fiction), and seeing several parallels between the characters in the book and people in our society today. So many people feel a righteous entitlement to things that they did not build, and calling this site a disservice just rubbed me the wrong way. I think that users have a right to express their opinion, but not to denounce a choice that is made. The beauty of freedom and capitalism is that if you don't like something, you're not forced to endure it. To try to make someone feel guilty (or obligated in some way) for something they have built, rather than just ignoring it, is quite possibly one of the worst infractions that one can commit against an individual.
    - mangodrunk 19y ago
      I'm curious to know why you think Atlas Shrugged is "the most important work of modern fiction". Rand's ideas weren't original and if someone needed to read her book to emulate Hank Rearden they will never be like Hank. At the time that I read it I thought it was the greatest fiction book I've ever read but that's because I'm technical and don't care much for good literature. But after time it has faded and I noticed her philosphy was nothing new. Maybe if she wrote it before the 16th Century I would say it was great but the 1950s? I still agree with most of her writings, but they are irrelevant. I thought those things before I read the book and so did the philosophers before her.
pg 19y ago
> Just because you're bored, doesn't mean everyone else is bored too. We use ourselves as a proxy for the audience we want to visit this site. This is reasonable, because we were the type of founder we like to invest in. It may sound presumptuous to use yourself as a proxy for the audience, but this is how a lot of good things came about: the Porsche 356, the Apple II, Google.
- greendestiny 19y ago
  And just to put a name to the audience, I'm very happy to see this change. I was getting bored of the links, and really this site is about hackers making things in startups. More than academia or open source projects, I think the natural home of the hacker is the startup.
- deleted 19y ago
  [deleted]
Keios 19y ago
Dean, 1. This site hasn't stopped being about startups. 2. Lots of people are bored with just reading about startups. Because beyond a point you need new material to spark interesting thoughts. Like many others here I am an entrepreneur for over 3 years and am now working on a web startup idea myself. I find stories such as #3, #5 and #6 useful - they contribute directly to my goals. Remember what stays on top is still decided by the people. And we won't go down the 'digg' path unless the audience that submits and votes changes - which is a problem I am certain PG is aware of and he has made references to some solutions that he is trying to put in place for keeping the stories interesting. 3. I have found that I find stories that PG submits interesting. As long as that is true he is a good measure for the typical audience. 4. Finally between stimulus and response I have freedom of choice. I will up vote only stories I like and I think that might be a great way to participate in the content. Thoughts??
- dean 19y ago
  Keios, I hope you're right about your first point. But my fear is that this site will become just another hacker site. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but we may end up losing a valuable resource on startups in the process. It may be true that lots of people are bored reading about startups, but when I become bored with a site, I stop visiting, I don't ask them to change their content to something I find more interesting. (I don't think anyone actually asked for this change, but you see my point.) I also agree with you that stories such as #3, #5 and #6 are useful, and I fully expect and appreciate to see stories like that here. They are part of what's needed for a startup, they're just not the only part, and should not be emphasized over other equally important startup-related stories. I'm not an entrepreneur (at least not yet), but I know that entrepreneurs wear many hats, and I want to learn about all those hats. Regarding your freedom of choice, remember that one of the changes proposed is giving un-equal weight to votes. You can vote up stories you like, but if the new system thinks those choices are "dumb stories", then your participation may not be having the effect you think it is. In the end I think a startup that focuses only on technology can produce a cool product, but no one may need it, or even hear about it. I think such a focus fosters the attitude of "If you build it, they will come". Which doesn't seem to work.
  - 19y ago
iamwil 19y ago
When I was working at an engineering job at a research lab, I was told what had to be accomplished. Of course, the degree of freedom, amount of creativity, and problem solving you can do varies from project to project, but in the end, I went to bed happy knowing in the back of my mind that someone, somewhere asked for whatever you're working on--that's why you're getting paid. When you're a startup founder, however, you aren't even sure of that, mostly because of the nature of startups and the markets they decide to persue. A startup can be successful in an already crowded and proven market--especially if the market sucks (online dating comes to mind). But often times, where startups shine is where others fear to tread, and that's in potential markets, unproven markets, and useless markets (until you prove that it isn't). But how do you figure that out? And given that you see a potential, how do you find a creative solution to build a business from it? I don't think anyone can tell the future when it comes to these things. But you can certainly learn to get a good intuition for it. One of the ways to do that is to constantly read broadly about interesting things that are going on in the fringes of any number of industries. By interesting, I mean, things that you didn't know that stretchs your understanding of the world and perhaps your imagination a little bit more. When you start to get your finger on the pulse of possibility, you're able to see blooming solutions where others only see wilting dead-ends. In addition, when you dig deep enough into any topic, it gets quite interesting. You'll start to find that all subjects are intertwined in one way or another. The way all subjects are compartmentalized in school is just so students don't get confused. But really, all subjects are inter-related. Sociology's studies on coordination and biology's study on social insects actually relates to optimization. Weather phenomenon actually relates to crytography. This inter-relatedness works to your advantage in finding creative solutions to make a business out of your new market, because creative things are usually a combination of old things put together in new ways. Contrary to popular believe, creativity isn't often completely out of nowhere, just as masterpieces don't just materialize in front of masters. For every masterpiece you see hanging in the galleries, there are hundreds of sketches and throwaway paintings that you don't see the master artist practicing on. By the same token, a creative solution for a startup isn't just a stroke of inspiration from nowhere. It's a culmination of a slow absorbing of interesting tidbits that you've gathered and processed in the back of your mind until you've put the relevant pieces together. So as far as I can tell, Paul Graham views hackers that are startup founders not as just really really good programmers. He believes what makes these people good startup founders is their innate curiosity in the world around them, and the willingness and drive to keep on learning about it to produce and create solutions--which lead to profit if attacked in a business way. That not only drives their strengths as programmers, but as thinkers and builders that change the world and will make money doing so. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but that's my best summary thus far. Therefore, if you buy into that, then I think the direction into the new YC news as Hacker news is a good change. It will allow people to keep seeing and learning interesting things so they have a better gut for potential and emerging markets, as well as helping them along in their creativity for novel solutions. That is, at least my take on it. Of course, we'll see how it actually all plays out, but I for one, am looking forward to the change.

by dean 19y ago

zcoelius 19y ago

Second what Dean said. Lots of good hacker news places. Very few good early stage startup stuff. Too conflate what YC was with TC is silly. TC is a profile site. YC.news gathers helpful articles on how make your startup better. I'll miss YC news if it becomes just another programmer site.

Goladus 19y ago
I think this will still be about making startups better, except in the sense that "better" doesn't always mean short-term present-day details.

BrandonM 19y ago

Why does any of that matter? This is PG's free site, which he has invested his time in and has asked nothing back for. Who are you to call anything associated with this site a "disservice"? That is patently absurd. If you are not happy with this site anymore, you are free to go start your own. You should not be free, however, to sit idly by and condemn the decisions of those who are aiming to make progress.

pg 19y ago
No, users do have a right to complain. Any site purporting to offer a service ought to try to make users happy. And this site isn't just a personal project. It's part of YC. So I ought to be able to claim that this change will benefit the people our site is for. And I do think that. YC specifically targets more hackerly founders, and I think they want to read about more than just startups.
- BrandonM 19y ago
  And I totally agree (that hackerly founders want to read about more than just startups); that's why I'm still here. I just took exception to the strong language of calling anything that you decide to do with your site a "disservice". I don't know, maybe a big part of it is that I've been reading Atlas Shrugged lately (in my opinion, the most important work of modern fiction), and seeing several parallels between the characters in the book and people in our society today. So many people feel a righteous entitlement to things that they did not build, and calling this site a disservice just rubbed me the wrong way. I think that users have a right to express their opinion, but not to denounce a choice that is made. The beauty of freedom and capitalism is that if you don't like something, you're not forced to endure it. To try to make someone feel guilty (or obligated in some way) for something they have built, rather than just ignoring it, is quite possibly one of the worst infractions that one can commit against an individual.
  - mangodrunk 19y ago
    I'm curious to know why you think Atlas Shrugged is "the most important work of modern fiction". Rand's ideas weren't original and if someone needed to read her book to emulate Hank Rearden they will never be like Hank. At the time that I read it I thought it was the greatest fiction book I've ever read but that's because I'm technical and don't care much for good literature. But after time it has faded and I noticed her philosphy was nothing new. Maybe if she wrote it before the 16th Century I would say it was great but the 1950s? I still agree with most of her writings, but they are irrelevant. I thought those things before I read the book and so did the philosophers before her.

pg 19y ago

> Just because you're bored, doesn't mean everyone else is bored too. We use ourselves as a proxy for the audience we want to visit this site. This is reasonable, because we were the type of founder we like to invest in. It may sound presumptuous to use yourself as a proxy for the audience, but this is how a lot of good things came about: the Porsche 356, the Apple II, Google.

greendestiny 19y ago
And just to put a name to the audience, I'm very happy to see this change. I was getting bored of the links, and really this site is about hackers making things in startups. More than academia or open source projects, I think the natural home of the hacker is the startup.
deleted 19y ago
[deleted]

Keios 19y ago

Dean, 1. This site hasn't stopped being about startups. 2. Lots of people are bored with just reading about startups. Because beyond a point you need new material to spark interesting thoughts. Like many others here I am an entrepreneur for over 3 years and am now working on a web startup idea myself. I find stories such as #3, #5 and #6 useful - they contribute directly to my goals. Remember what stays on top is still decided by the people. And we won't go down the 'digg' path unless the audience that submits and votes changes - which is a problem I am certain PG is aware of and he has made references to some solutions that he is trying to put in place for keeping the stories interesting. 3. I have found that I find stories that PG submits interesting. As long as that is true he is a good measure for the typical audience. 4. Finally between stimulus and response I have freedom of choice. I will up vote only stories I like and I think that might be a great way to participate in the content. Thoughts??

dean 19y ago
Keios, I hope you're right about your first point. But my fear is that this site will become just another hacker site. There is nothing wrong with that per se, but we may end up losing a valuable resource on startups in the process. It may be true that lots of people are bored reading about startups, but when I become bored with a site, I stop visiting, I don't ask them to change their content to something I find more interesting. (I don't think anyone actually asked for this change, but you see my point.) I also agree with you that stories such as #3, #5 and #6 are useful, and I fully expect and appreciate to see stories like that here. They are part of what's needed for a startup, they're just not the only part, and should not be emphasized over other equally important startup-related stories. I'm not an entrepreneur (at least not yet), but I know that entrepreneurs wear many hats, and I want to learn about all those hats. Regarding your freedom of choice, remember that one of the changes proposed is giving un-equal weight to votes. You can vote up stories you like, but if the new system thinks those choices are "dumb stories", then your participation may not be having the effect you think it is. In the end I think a startup that focuses only on technology can produce a cool product, but no one may need it, or even hear about it. I think such a focus fosters the attitude of "If you build it, they will come". Which doesn't seem to work.
- 19y ago

iamwil 19y ago

When I was working at an engineering job at a research lab, I was told what had to be accomplished. Of course, the degree of freedom, amount of creativity, and problem solving you can do varies from project to project, but in the end, I went to bed happy knowing in the back of my mind that someone, somewhere asked for whatever you're working on--that's why you're getting paid. When you're a startup founder, however, you aren't even sure of that, mostly because of the nature of startups and the markets they decide to persue. A startup can be successful in an already crowded and proven market--especially if the market sucks (online dating comes to mind). But often times, where startups shine is where others fear to tread, and that's in potential markets, unproven markets, and useless markets (until you prove that it isn't). But how do you figure that out? And given that you see a potential, how do you find a creative solution to build a business from it? I don't think anyone can tell the future when it comes to these things. But you can certainly learn to get a good intuition for it. One of the ways to do that is to constantly read broadly about interesting things that are going on in the fringes of any number of industries. By interesting, I mean, things that you didn't know that stretchs your understanding of the world and perhaps your imagination a little bit more. When you start to get your finger on the pulse of possibility, you're able to see blooming solutions where others only see wilting dead-ends. In addition, when you dig deep enough into any topic, it gets quite interesting. You'll start to find that all subjects are intertwined in one way or another. The way all subjects are compartmentalized in school is just so students don't get confused. But really, all subjects are inter-related. Sociology's studies on coordination and biology's study on social insects actually relates to optimization. Weather phenomenon actually relates to crytography. This inter-relatedness works to your advantage in finding creative solutions to make a business out of your new market, because creative things are usually a combination of old things put together in new ways. Contrary to popular believe, creativity isn't often completely out of nowhere, just as masterpieces don't just materialize in front of masters. For every masterpiece you see hanging in the galleries, there are hundreds of sketches and throwaway paintings that you don't see the master artist practicing on. By the same token, a creative solution for a startup isn't just a stroke of inspiration from nowhere. It's a culmination of a slow absorbing of interesting tidbits that you've gathered and processed in the back of your mind until you've put the relevant pieces together. So as far as I can tell, Paul Graham views hackers that are startup founders not as just really really good programmers. He believes what makes these people good startup founders is their innate curiosity in the world around them, and the willingness and drive to keep on learning about it to produce and create solutions--which lead to profit if attacked in a business way. That not only drives their strengths as programmers, but as thinkers and builders that change the world and will make money doing so. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but that's my best summary thus far. Therefore, if you buy into that, then I think the direction into the new YC news as Hacker news is a good change. It will allow people to keep seeing and learning interesting things so they have a better gut for potential and emerging markets, as well as helping them along in their creativity for novel solutions. That is, at least my take on it. Of course, we'll see how it actually all plays out, but I for one, am looking forward to the change.