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Hope Toyota get their mojo back for EVs.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
Kinda doubt it. They also suffer from large company inertia where their hybrid powertrains gave them a market leadership, similar to German cars and diesel engines, making difficult to pivot to a market where there's much stronger competition and they don't have the crown anymore.
- hedora 2y ago
  My German EV was introduced a decade ago, and it’s still great! I think a better comparison is to the Italians. Stellantis bought up a bunch of iconic brands when they got Chrysler and then integrated a bunch of new technology from Fiat. Since then, they’ve focused on creature comforts and margin expansion, but neglected everything else. They recently realized their sales projections are headed for a cliff and unceremoniously fired their CEO.
  - jfim 2y ago
    What EV model would that be, out of curiosity? I wasn't aware the Germans were making EVs back then.
    - ncruces 2y ago
      Or an e-Golf.
    - cowsandmilk 2y ago
      BMW i3 came on market in 2013
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - kla-s 2y ago
    Yeah its a mixed bag in germany in my eyes. All of the big brands have a real electric platform minus BMW. 800V isnt pioneered with them either. VDA is pressuring for HVO100 bs. Mercedes just pulled back on the electric only strategy. I guess they figured that most of the added value is with the batteries and being deeply integrated there and thats not really their cup of tea, so far at least. There where Taycans for 30k$ which was a real great deal if your the second buyer and not the first. On the other hand the id family looks ok, facelift good. The a6 is pricey at 100k but is the first really capable german highway ev, not as premature as the eqs…
    - hedora 2y ago
      What’s wrong with BMW’s platform? The technology (e.g. heat pump, carbon fiber/aluminum body), user interface and fuel economy (not range) of my old i3 are all competitive with the 2022-2024 EVs I’ve driven. Unless they somehow regressed 10 years, the only obvious problem with the new BMW EVs is that none offer a third row.
      - Cumpiler69 2y ago
        i3 is fugly as hell and not many bought it.
        hedora 2y ago
        Hey now, the i3’s already a museum piece! The i8 was also a special snowflake (hybrid supercar with wing doors and questionable transmission), but what about the i4, i7 and iX? They all look extremely competitive.
      - kla-s 2y ago
        I dislike the cardan tunnel of the shared ICE/BEV platform if you look at eg the i4. It exacerbates the problem of all (aerodinammically efficient) BEVs with a low roof line: blood flow problems due to hip impingement is bound to happen due to the "head between knees" sitting position in the back. My main gripe is no 800V, it would be a sane travel car with that. No frunk to store the possibly wet and dirty ac cable. Yes they exist on the aftermarket but the car is a premium product, one shouldn't have to deal with this. My personal EV tech goal/dream is 400km range in between 20-80% SOC, chargeable in <20 minutes. Ideally as a worst case ie cold outside -5C, 140kmh avg. And the whole package affordable: <50k new, ideally even <30k. Let's hope we'll see this kind of volume model sooner rather than later. My hope is that it could significantly improve the QOL for many people in cities worldwide and help further build out renewables by offering grid stabilization while not in use (this dream unfortunately requires ~100kwh, which will result in a >2t vehicle so tire rub will probably increase slightly, though i think its a worthwile trade off). So i guess my last gripe is price, yes its a premium product but the production complexity and price should go down vs BEVs...
pfdietz 2y ago
Maybe if their solid state batteries work out? How has that Hail Mary move been going?
CharlieDigital 2y ago
I'm kinda OK with them just dominating hybrids; especially plugins. I own a 2024 Prius Prime (PHEV) and the setup works great. No range anxiety, no special charging infra (I just plug in on a normal 120v overnight). I got the car in Feb 24 and maybe pumped gas a total of 8 times? If I didn't make two longer trips, it would have been 6. But also, the power output is pretty great and an upgrade over the hybrid only model. It feels like the sweet spot for most Americans and doesn't require any real lifestyle change. Big shame is that dealers aren't necessarily charging them on the lot. So if you test drive one, you might only feel the hybrid and not the EV mode.
- inciampati 2y ago
  A regular EV also requires no special infrastructure. Just your regular house electrical system (e.g. 120v wall outlet in the US). Only on long trips do you need fast chargers or does range anxiety kick in. If you do a lot of long drives I can see that being a problem. But if not I'd be willing to bet you'd lose less time charging than taking your vehicle to the mechanic for maintenance and repairs. Because the EV, when built well, requires a frighteningly low amount of maintenance.
  - CharlieDigital 2y ago
    Problem is that because it's a full EV, it might leave me at a deficit charging only on 120v. On the other hand, two days a week I make a drive that's just beyond EV range and the hybrid just kicks in afterwards.
    - celsoazevedo 2y ago
      Based on the limited info you've shared, you don't seem to drive enough to be at a deficit. Maybe it will take the night to charge the 10-20% you've used during the day, but you have a big buffer. You can't pick a car with a small battery though as that will cause problems on long trips. Something around 80 kWh should be enough for most people.
  - skeeter2020 2y ago
rsanheim 2y ago
The Sienna is a great hybrid if you are wanting something larger for families or hauling stuff. Tons of space, really nice cabin, and far more practical for 90% of uses than a huge pickup or any of the large SUVs. I can haul groceries and my large dog in the back cargo area w/ the 3rd row down, or put the row up for seating seven. Oh, and mileage is 30-34 mpg, at least when its not the middle of midwest winter. I do wish they'd release their PHEV vans over here (https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/41970489.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/41970489.html), which also look like something out of Blade Runner.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  The Alphard and Vellfires are the equivalent of an Escalade in Japan and ASEAN. I don't think that PMF would translate in the US. Sucks becuase the seats are really comfy. Ironically, if you're looking forward to an Electric SUV, you're more likely to find that in India where macho SUV culture is massive.
- duxup 2y ago
  I wish the Sienna had a plug in option. I’m ready for a new van.
DoneWithAllThat 2y ago
“Hope <the number two by sales in the US vehicle manufacturer> gets their mojo back” is certainly a take.
- warner25 2y ago
  I feel the same way as the parent comment. They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars. Their bets on hydrogen fuel cells haven't yielded anything, and now they're a decade behind on developing EV experience and expertise. I've owned three Toyotas because they've always seemed to be the lowest total-cost-of-ownership option, being especially good in the compact and midsize segments. American manufacturers are trying as hard as possible to abandon those segments. So what will we be left with? I don't want a giant, luxury sports car that costs $50k+.
  - philwelch 2y ago
    > They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars. I wouldn’t worry about that anymore.
    - warner25 2y ago
      For the next 2-4 years, sure, but this seems like a longer-term trend towards something that's going to happen eventually.
      - philwelch 2y ago
        No, I think we're seeing a correction in the long term trend. It's possible that EV's will take over the car market, but if they do it will be because that's what consumers prefer, not because of government mandates.
        rat87 2y ago
        I mean ice are definitely going to be banned sooner or later. For everyones sake it should be sooner
numpad0 2y ago
Kind of tangential TIL: Toyota sells 3x more bZ4X in US(18k/yr) than all Tesla models combined in Japan(6k/yr), before counting in Subaru Solterra.

Kinda doubt it. They also suffer from large company inertia where their hybrid powertrains gave them a market leadership, similar to German cars and diesel engines, making difficult to pivot to a market where there's much stronger competition and they don't have the crown anymore.

hedora 2y ago
My German EV was introduced a decade ago, and it’s still great! I think a better comparison is to the Italians. Stellantis bought up a bunch of iconic brands when they got Chrysler and then integrated a bunch of new technology from Fiat. Since then, they’ve focused on creature comforts and margin expansion, but neglected everything else. They recently realized their sales projections are headed for a cliff and unceremoniously fired their CEO.
- jfim 2y ago
  What EV model would that be, out of curiosity? I wasn't aware the Germans were making EVs back then.
  - ncruces 2y ago
    Or an e-Golf.
  - cowsandmilk 2y ago
    BMW i3 came on market in 2013
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- kla-s 2y ago
  Yeah its a mixed bag in germany in my eyes. All of the big brands have a real electric platform minus BMW. 800V isnt pioneered with them either. VDA is pressuring for HVO100 bs. Mercedes just pulled back on the electric only strategy. I guess they figured that most of the added value is with the batteries and being deeply integrated there and thats not really their cup of tea, so far at least. There where Taycans for 30k$ which was a real great deal if your the second buyer and not the first. On the other hand the id family looks ok, facelift good. The a6 is pricey at 100k but is the first really capable german highway ev, not as premature as the eqs…
  - hedora 2y ago
    What’s wrong with BMW’s platform? The technology (e.g. heat pump, carbon fiber/aluminum body), user interface and fuel economy (not range) of my old i3 are all competitive with the 2022-2024 EVs I’ve driven. Unless they somehow regressed 10 years, the only obvious problem with the new BMW EVs is that none offer a third row.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      i3 is fugly as hell and not many bought it.
      - hedora 2y ago
        Hey now, the i3’s already a museum piece! The i8 was also a special snowflake (hybrid supercar with wing doors and questionable transmission), but what about the i4, i7 and iX? They all look extremely competitive.
    - kla-s 2y ago
      I dislike the cardan tunnel of the shared ICE/BEV platform if you look at eg the i4. It exacerbates the problem of all (aerodinammically efficient) BEVs with a low roof line: blood flow problems due to hip impingement is bound to happen due to the "head between knees" sitting position in the back. My main gripe is no 800V, it would be a sane travel car with that. No frunk to store the possibly wet and dirty ac cable. Yes they exist on the aftermarket but the car is a premium product, one shouldn't have to deal with this. My personal EV tech goal/dream is 400km range in between 20-80% SOC, chargeable in <20 minutes. Ideally as a worst case ie cold outside -5C, 140kmh avg. And the whole package affordable: <50k new, ideally even <30k. Let's hope we'll see this kind of volume model sooner rather than later. My hope is that it could significantly improve the QOL for many people in cities worldwide and help further build out renewables by offering grid stabilization while not in use (this dream unfortunately requires ~100kwh, which will result in a >2t vehicle so tire rub will probably increase slightly, though i think its a worthwile trade off). So i guess my last gripe is price, yes its a premium product but the production complexity and price should go down vs BEVs...

pfdietz 2y ago

Maybe if their solid state batteries work out? How has that Hail Mary move been going?

CharlieDigital 2y ago

I'm kinda OK with them just dominating hybrids; especially plugins. I own a 2024 Prius Prime (PHEV) and the setup works great. No range anxiety, no special charging infra (I just plug in on a normal 120v overnight). I got the car in Feb 24 and maybe pumped gas a total of 8 times? If I didn't make two longer trips, it would have been 6. But also, the power output is pretty great and an upgrade over the hybrid only model. It feels like the sweet spot for most Americans and doesn't require any real lifestyle change. Big shame is that dealers aren't necessarily charging them on the lot. So if you test drive one, you might only feel the hybrid and not the EV mode.

inciampati 2y ago
A regular EV also requires no special infrastructure. Just your regular house electrical system (e.g. 120v wall outlet in the US). Only on long trips do you need fast chargers or does range anxiety kick in. If you do a lot of long drives I can see that being a problem. But if not I'd be willing to bet you'd lose less time charging than taking your vehicle to the mechanic for maintenance and repairs. Because the EV, when built well, requires a frighteningly low amount of maintenance.
- CharlieDigital 2y ago
  Problem is that because it's a full EV, it might leave me at a deficit charging only on 120v. On the other hand, two days a week I make a drive that's just beyond EV range and the hybrid just kicks in afterwards.
  - celsoazevedo 2y ago
    Based on the limited info you've shared, you don't seem to drive enough to be at a deficit. Maybe it will take the night to charge the 10-20% you've used during the day, but you have a big buffer. You can't pick a car with a small battery though as that will cause problems on long trips. Something around 80 kWh should be enough for most people.
- skeeter2020 2y ago

rsanheim 2y ago

The Sienna is a great hybrid if you are wanting something larger for families or hauling stuff. Tons of space, really nice cabin, and far more practical for 90% of uses than a huge pickup or any of the large SUVs. I can haul groceries and my large dog in the back cargo area w/ the 3rd row down, or put the row up for seating seven. Oh, and mileage is 30-34 mpg, at least when its not the middle of midwest winter. I do wish they'd release their PHEV vans over here (https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/41970489.html https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/41970489.html), which also look like something out of Blade Runner.

alephnerd 2y ago
The Alphard and Vellfires are the equivalent of an Escalade in Japan and ASEAN. I don't think that PMF would translate in the US. Sucks becuase the seats are really comfy. Ironically, if you're looking forward to an Electric SUV, you're more likely to find that in India where macho SUV culture is massive.
duxup 2y ago
I wish the Sienna had a plug in option. I’m ready for a new van.

DoneWithAllThat 2y ago

“Hope <the number two by sales in the US vehicle manufacturer> gets their mojo back” is certainly a take.

warner25 2y ago
I feel the same way as the parent comment. They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars. Their bets on hydrogen fuel cells haven't yielded anything, and now they're a decade behind on developing EV experience and expertise. I've owned three Toyotas because they've always seemed to be the lowest total-cost-of-ownership option, being especially good in the compact and midsize segments. American manufacturers are trying as hard as possible to abandon those segments. So what will we be left with? I don't want a giant, luxury sports car that costs $50k+.
- philwelch 2y ago
  > They're number two for now, but seem screwed in a world that's moving towards outlawing gasoline-powered cars. I wouldn’t worry about that anymore.
  - warner25 2y ago
    For the next 2-4 years, sure, but this seems like a longer-term trend towards something that's going to happen eventually.
    - philwelch 2y ago
      No, I think we're seeing a correction in the long term trend. It's possible that EV's will take over the car market, but if they do it will be because that's what consumers prefer, not because of government mandates.
      - rat87 2y ago
        I mean ice are definitely going to be banned sooner or later. For everyones sake it should be sooner

numpad0 2y ago

Kind of tangential TIL: Toyota sells 3x more bZ4X in US(18k/yr) than all Tesla models combined in Japan(6k/yr), before counting in Subaru Solterra.