4 ms·

> Most people also decide Most people didn't decide. Most people were tricked into using chrome. Most people are not computer literate.

rplnt 2y ago
That's fair. Though if I replaced "people" with "HN users" it would still hold true, and I would consider this group to be very computer literate.
- beretguy 2y ago
  Unfortunately, yes.
_Algernon_ 2y ago
[flagged]
- latexr 2y ago
  Not everyone has the time, inclination, patience, or opportunity to “be informed” about all the shit every tech company does. It’s exhausting even for tech-literate people. Have some empathy.
  - _Algernon_ 2y ago
    The bar isnt keeping up with shit every tech company does. The bar is knowing what a directory or file is. Yes, the bar is that low. https://www.forbes.com/consent/ketch/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbestechcouncil/2023/06/23/the-next-generation-of-workers-is-less-tech-savvy-than-we-may-think/ https://www.forbes.com/consent/ketch/?toURL=https://www.forb... If people arent functioning because they choose to refuse to learn to read or write, you wouldn't defend them. Why is it different for computers? Computers are just as important for functioning in society today as being able to read or write.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      > The bar is knowing what a directory or file is. How do you learn than on an iPhone?
      - nickthegreek 2y ago
        files app.
      - _Algernon_ 2y ago
        By choosing not to have an iPhone or using any desktop OS literally once.
        fsflover 2y ago
        You don't know what to choose without any experience or good advice.
        _Algernon_ 2y ago
        This is such an infantilising take. Adults are fully capable of seeking out good advice.
        fsflover 2y ago
        This is an empathizing take. You need a good deal of education and free time (i.e., money) to be able to make good choices in every field.
- freetanga 2y ago
  Just for reference: - 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2024. - 54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level (20% are below 5th-grade level). I would argue than everyone who is stuck a below 6th grade understanding of a language they use everyday can hardly be tech literate ( which in itself requires good reading and abstraction capabilities) Is it their fault because they choose to be like this? Their parents? Their goverment? Nature gave them the wrong genes? Society shun them for their skin color? A bearded white guy in a cloud chose to ruin their lives? Don’t know, don’t care, but demanding agency to all adults feels a bit narrow minded, selfish, and not too thankful for avoiding a few external barriers that other humans have to endure… most of us here skipped those challenges, and ignoring how much headstart we got by sheer luck and no own merit is a bit inmature, IMHO. Opinions are like noses: everyone has one, and almost all of them are unremarkable and irrelevant to other people. This is my nose.
  - _Algernon_ 2y ago
    We have a tool for people who can't deal with the responsibility and freedom of adulthood. They have guardians who make the decisions for them (parents in the case of minors or a guardian assigned to them). The american education system being abhorrent is a separate issue but adapting society to fit the lowest common denominator isn't a solution.
- beretguy 2y ago
  I don't know, it's almost kind of like saying that newborn babies are illiterate by choice. Not everybody cares about computers or how to use them, they just want to find that restaurant address or read this news article or whatever. They don't have time or interest to learn how to use computers. I don't know how to replace transmission in my car. It's not by choice - I just don't have time and money to learn how to do that. Things take time and money to learn.
  - _Algernon_ 2y ago
    I'm literally mentioning adults in my comment. Adults have agency. Babies don't. Weird choice of comparison. As for the car analogy: You're right, but you also accept the consequences of that choice which is mostly limited to having to pay for a mechanic every once in a while. The consequences of tech illiteracy is much worse (more comparible to actual illiteracy): - Lower employability. - Easier to get scammed / have data leaked or hacked. - Easier to get manipulated by platforms (social media are comparable to priests interpreting the bible to people before literacy was common). - On a societal scale, when enough people are affected, the above leads to instability, proliferation of dis- and misinformation on a societal scale. - Per av above, destabilising of democracy. I'm sure people argued the same about people not having to learn to read / write during the enlightenment. Im happy they did not win out. Tragically, it appears we are going the opposite direction this time.
- verisimi 2y ago
  Yes, this is true. But then nefarious tricks by tech companies aren't exactly punished. Eg google itself attempted to kill rss, by massively supporting it then dropping it. This is not an illegal or punishable offence (it is immoral imo), but illustrates the point that these companies attempt to sculpt the reality, to train people into compromise. It can't be a one way street only, where individuals have to fend for themselves, but corporations can try every trick to get their way.
  - account42 2y ago
    > Eg google itself attempted to kill rss, by massively supporting it then dropping it. Good old EEE.
dist-epoch 2y ago
When Chrome appeared HN was full of comments like "I switched all my family to Chrome, I recommend you do too".
- n144q 2y ago
  Dude, that's completely irrelevant. Most people switched from Internet Explorer. Firefox was never the "mainstream" choice.
  - black3r 2y ago
    > Firefox was never the "mainstream" choice. This may be more regional-based and profession-based though. Around 2010 when Chrome was entering the market Firefox had around 30% global market share. In Slovakia where I'm from Firefox was "mainstream enough" that we had it pre-installed on high school and library computers and were taught to use it instead of IE as early as 2005..., But also in lots of enterprise-style managed companies (including basically all government offices, banks, ...) you couldn't use anything other than IE as late as 2016 cause there was no way they were gonna allow you to change your homepage from the company intranet home, so there were also lots of people who were using Firefox at home but also using IE at work because they had no other choice...
    - rplnt 2y ago
      I think Opera had even bigger share in Eastern European countries at the time. But it was actively killed by Google. From homepage ads on google/youtube to blocking features or whole applications based on user agent.
- latexr 2y ago
  When Chrome appeared, Google still had “don’t be evil” as a motto and was generally considered a champion of users. It’s been a decade and a half since then, the tech landscape shifted tremendously. Think we’re Apple was back then, the iPhone barely existed.
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
magpi3 2y ago
I'm a teacher, and Google Classroom is ubiquitous in American schools. I was not tricked into using Chrome. It is without a doubt the best browser for Google Apps. Mozilla is laggy when editing documents and doesn't have an extension for offline editing. Give Google credit: they have created a very useful ecosystem that has won people over in the marketplace. I NEVER thought anything would convince companies to move off of Microsoft Office, but Google is actually doing it (on a small scale at least).
- crtasm 2y ago
  The webapps Google makes only work well on the browser Google makes and all these students have no choice but to use Google services to complete their education? That is a very clever trick they've pulled.
- account42 2y ago
  What you are describing is the reason why we have antitrust laws. Creating an ecosystem where you web apps "encourage" users to use your browser is the antithesis of an open marketplace.

rplnt 2y ago

That's fair. Though if I replaced "people" with "HN users" it would still hold true, and I would consider this group to be very computer literate.

beretguy 2y ago
Unfortunately, yes.

_Algernon_ 2y ago

[flagged]

latexr 2y ago
Not everyone has the time, inclination, patience, or opportunity to “be informed” about all the shit every tech company does. It’s exhausting even for tech-literate people. Have some empathy.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  The bar isnt keeping up with shit every tech company does. The bar is knowing what a directory or file is. Yes, the bar is that low. https://www.forbes.com/consent/ketch/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbestechcouncil/2023/06/23/the-next-generation-of-workers-is-less-tech-savvy-than-we-may-think/ https://www.forbes.com/consent/ketch/?toURL=https://www.forb... If people arent functioning because they choose to refuse to learn to read or write, you wouldn't defend them. Why is it different for computers? Computers are just as important for functioning in society today as being able to read or write.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    > The bar is knowing what a directory or file is. How do you learn than on an iPhone?
    - nickthegreek 2y ago
      files app.
    - _Algernon_ 2y ago
      By choosing not to have an iPhone or using any desktop OS literally once.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        You don't know what to choose without any experience or good advice.
        _Algernon_ 2y ago
        This is such an infantilising take. Adults are fully capable of seeking out good advice.
        fsflover 2y ago
        This is an empathizing take. You need a good deal of education and free time (i.e., money) to be able to make good choices in every field.
freetanga 2y ago
Just for reference: - 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2024. - 54% of adults have a literacy below a 6th-grade level (20% are below 5th-grade level). I would argue than everyone who is stuck a below 6th grade understanding of a language they use everyday can hardly be tech literate ( which in itself requires good reading and abstraction capabilities) Is it their fault because they choose to be like this? Their parents? Their goverment? Nature gave them the wrong genes? Society shun them for their skin color? A bearded white guy in a cloud chose to ruin their lives? Don’t know, don’t care, but demanding agency to all adults feels a bit narrow minded, selfish, and not too thankful for avoiding a few external barriers that other humans have to endure… most of us here skipped those challenges, and ignoring how much headstart we got by sheer luck and no own merit is a bit inmature, IMHO. Opinions are like noses: everyone has one, and almost all of them are unremarkable and irrelevant to other people. This is my nose.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  We have a tool for people who can't deal with the responsibility and freedom of adulthood. They have guardians who make the decisions for them (parents in the case of minors or a guardian assigned to them). The american education system being abhorrent is a separate issue but adapting society to fit the lowest common denominator isn't a solution.
beretguy 2y ago
I don't know, it's almost kind of like saying that newborn babies are illiterate by choice. Not everybody cares about computers or how to use them, they just want to find that restaurant address or read this news article or whatever. They don't have time or interest to learn how to use computers. I don't know how to replace transmission in my car. It's not by choice - I just don't have time and money to learn how to do that. Things take time and money to learn.
- _Algernon_ 2y ago
  I'm literally mentioning adults in my comment. Adults have agency. Babies don't. Weird choice of comparison. As for the car analogy: You're right, but you also accept the consequences of that choice which is mostly limited to having to pay for a mechanic every once in a while. The consequences of tech illiteracy is much worse (more comparible to actual illiteracy): - Lower employability. - Easier to get scammed / have data leaked or hacked. - Easier to get manipulated by platforms (social media are comparable to priests interpreting the bible to people before literacy was common). - On a societal scale, when enough people are affected, the above leads to instability, proliferation of dis- and misinformation on a societal scale. - Per av above, destabilising of democracy. I'm sure people argued the same about people not having to learn to read / write during the enlightenment. Im happy they did not win out. Tragically, it appears we are going the opposite direction this time.
verisimi 2y ago
Yes, this is true. But then nefarious tricks by tech companies aren't exactly punished. Eg google itself attempted to kill rss, by massively supporting it then dropping it. This is not an illegal or punishable offence (it is immoral imo), but illustrates the point that these companies attempt to sculpt the reality, to train people into compromise. It can't be a one way street only, where individuals have to fend for themselves, but corporations can try every trick to get their way.
- account42 2y ago
  > Eg google itself attempted to kill rss, by massively supporting it then dropping it. Good old EEE.

dist-epoch 2y ago

When Chrome appeared HN was full of comments like "I switched all my family to Chrome, I recommend you do too".

n144q 2y ago
Dude, that's completely irrelevant. Most people switched from Internet Explorer. Firefox was never the "mainstream" choice.
- black3r 2y ago
  > Firefox was never the "mainstream" choice. This may be more regional-based and profession-based though. Around 2010 when Chrome was entering the market Firefox had around 30% global market share. In Slovakia where I'm from Firefox was "mainstream enough" that we had it pre-installed on high school and library computers and were taught to use it instead of IE as early as 2005..., But also in lots of enterprise-style managed companies (including basically all government offices, banks, ...) you couldn't use anything other than IE as late as 2016 cause there was no way they were gonna allow you to change your homepage from the company intranet home, so there were also lots of people who were using Firefox at home but also using IE at work because they had no other choice...
  - rplnt 2y ago
    I think Opera had even bigger share in Eastern European countries at the time. But it was actively killed by Google. From homepage ads on google/youtube to blocking features or whole applications based on user agent.
latexr 2y ago
When Chrome appeared, Google still had “don’t be evil” as a motto and was generally considered a champion of users. It’s been a decade and a half since then, the tech landscape shifted tremendously. Think we’re Apple was back then, the iPhone barely existed.
lern_too_spel 2y ago

magpi3 2y ago

I'm a teacher, and Google Classroom is ubiquitous in American schools. I was not tricked into using Chrome. It is without a doubt the best browser for Google Apps. Mozilla is laggy when editing documents and doesn't have an extension for offline editing. Give Google credit: they have created a very useful ecosystem that has won people over in the marketplace. I NEVER thought anything would convince companies to move off of Microsoft Office, but Google is actually doing it (on a small scale at least).

crtasm 2y ago
The webapps Google makes only work well on the browser Google makes and all these students have no choice but to use Google services to complete their education? That is a very clever trick they've pulled.
account42 2y ago
What you are describing is the reason why we have antitrust laws. Creating an ecosystem where you web apps "encourage" users to use your browser is the antithesis of an open marketplace.