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>Imagine this happening for a serious criminal issue, with the years long back log on some courts, this could ruin someones life. It can be much scarier. Ther

>Imagine this happening for a serious criminal issue, with the years long back log on some courts, this could ruin someones life. It can be much scarier. There was a case in Russia when a scientist was accused in a murder that happened 20 years ago based on 70% face recognition match and fake identification as an accomplice by a criminal. [0] He spent 10 months in jail during "investigation" despite being incredibly lucky to have an alibi -- archival records of the institute where he worked, proving he was in an expedition far away from Moscow at that time. He was eventually freed but I'm afraid that police investigators that used very weak face recognition match as a way to improve their work performance stats are still working in the police. [0] https://lenta.ru/articles/2024/04/03/scientist/ https://lenta.ru/articles/2024/04/03/scientist/

bflesch 2y ago
[flagged]
- fwn 2y ago
  > [...] my conclusion is that you're here to spill russian propaganda. [...] The case described by the parent is that of someone who was wrongly imprisoned for 10 months on the basis of bogus application of faulty technology, even though they had a solid alibi. Therefore, the comment does not reflect well on Russia, the Russian state or the Russian government, like.. at all. If there is a propaganda dimension to this (which I doubt), it is certainly not an attempt to say something nice about the Russian justice system.
  - bflesch 2y ago
    It's a subtle form of propaganda. Same category as the "funny russian car crashes" or "awesome chinese acrobat" videos that are on reddit's front page all the time. One might wonder why it's always those two countries and not others who are getting thousands of upvotes. The comment I criticized falsely implies that there is due process in russia, and that technical faults lead to unfair results for the people who are accused of something. It is a cherry-picked example, and the big majority of russian court cases are decided without due process, because it is a dictatorship. If you try to get justice because you were harmed by corrupt officials or the tzar you're out of luck. Lawyers are getting shot on the street as a birthday present for putin. There are lots of examples. And once you're in prison they'll send you to the frontlines to murder Ukrainians.
    - fwn 2y ago
      I'm pretty relaxed about all this, but just a thought: Your comments in this thread seem very eager to talk about Russia instead of the actual topic of the thread, which is privacy and AI. You wrote those comments in a very repetitive and mission-driven way. Which does not inspire confidence in the absence of ulterior motives.
- asddubs 2y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-fo... The notion that this kind of thing couldn't happen in the west is laughable
  - drysine 2y ago
    Or this: "A former forensic scientist intentionally manipulated DNA evidence during her 29-year career at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, casting doubt on at least 652 criminal cases she handled, including some of the most high-profile trials, according to investigation findings released by the agency Friday." [0] [0] https://coloradosun.com/2024/03/08/yvonne-missy-woods-cbi-investigation/ https://coloradosun.com/2024/03/08/yvonne-missy-woods-cbi-in...
    - bflesch 2y ago
      You chime in to showcase another thing where the USA is wrong, but you oversee the point that in no way russia is comparable to this. In the article you linked, there is a criminal investigation, an audit and a re-test of evidence in order “to ensure the accuracy and completeness of its entire catalog of records because someone manipulated DNA evidence. In russia, there is no investigation, because they make up evidence against their political enemies all the time. It feels like you have some incentive to miss the elephant in the room.
  - bflesch 2y ago
    The notion that the judicial system in democratic countries is in any way comparable to the judicial system in the dictatorship of russia is laughable. In democratic countries such errors with regards to forensic evidence spark news because it is so unusual. In dictatorships like russia, nobody expects forensic methods to be valid because the court verdict does not depend on evidence, it depends on your connections to the dictator.
    - asddubs 2y ago
ithkuil 2y ago
And probably there are other people in jail convicted using the same method that just were unlucky enough to not have a bulletproof alibi?
- drysine 2y ago
  I don't know, but it seems quite likely, unfortunately. There were quite a few other cases when fake evidence was planted by police. It's not the only problem with technology -- it's claimed that there has been over hundred cases of false DNA matches not caused by malice or processing errors.[0] In theory, DNA match must not be considered by courts as 100% accurate, but in fact it is. On the other hand, there were cases when human rights advocates or journalists were claiming that innocent people were jailed but that turned out to be false, like people getting caught on camera doing the same kind of crime again after they served their sentence. [0] https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5825384 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5825384
  - asddubs 2y ago
    same with stenographs. We keep inventing new methods for the police to make up evidence.
    - drysine 2y ago
      I don't understand, could you elaborate on that?
      - asddubs 2y ago
        I apologize, I got the terms mixed up, I meant a polygraph
        drysine 2y ago
        Yep, I got the impression that courts consider polygraph only when the results implicate the accused. Good thing that by law they cannot force you to get questioned with polygraph attached.
polygon87 2y ago
I know it’s the wrong way to think but things like this make me glad about a digital footprint… good chance I’m liking a TikTok comment or reading an HN thread at the same time as any crime, just statistically.
- asddubs 2y ago
  that's not going to get you off the hook. anything that could be faked via account sharing is going to be discarded (not to mention that tiktok and similar platforms will not collaborate with you to build an alibi by giving access to this data, only the police to build a case)
rainonmoon 2y ago
Grave consequences are not a rarity. Automated decision making in immigration and housing classify people with zero recourse or transparency, locking them out of a place to live (and in the case of Australia, locking them up in offshore detention for years).

bflesch 2y ago

[flagged]

fwn 2y ago
> [...] my conclusion is that you're here to spill russian propaganda. [...] The case described by the parent is that of someone who was wrongly imprisoned for 10 months on the basis of bogus application of faulty technology, even though they had a solid alibi. Therefore, the comment does not reflect well on Russia, the Russian state or the Russian government, like.. at all. If there is a propaganda dimension to this (which I doubt), it is certainly not an attempt to say something nice about the Russian justice system.
- bflesch 2y ago
  It's a subtle form of propaganda. Same category as the "funny russian car crashes" or "awesome chinese acrobat" videos that are on reddit's front page all the time. One might wonder why it's always those two countries and not others who are getting thousands of upvotes. The comment I criticized falsely implies that there is due process in russia, and that technical faults lead to unfair results for the people who are accused of something. It is a cherry-picked example, and the big majority of russian court cases are decided without due process, because it is a dictatorship. If you try to get justice because you were harmed by corrupt officials or the tzar you're out of luck. Lawyers are getting shot on the street as a birthday present for putin. There are lots of examples. And once you're in prison they'll send you to the frontlines to murder Ukrainians.
  - fwn 2y ago
    I'm pretty relaxed about all this, but just a thought: Your comments in this thread seem very eager to talk about Russia instead of the actual topic of the thread, which is privacy and AI. You wrote those comments in a very repetitive and mission-driven way. Which does not inspire confidence in the absence of ulterior motives.
asddubs 2y ago
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-forensic-hair-matches-in-nearly-all-criminal-trials-for-decades/2015/04/18/39c8d8c6-e515-11e4-b510-962fcfabc310_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/fbi-overstated-fo... The notion that this kind of thing couldn't happen in the west is laughable
- drysine 2y ago
  Or this: "A former forensic scientist intentionally manipulated DNA evidence during her 29-year career at the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, casting doubt on at least 652 criminal cases she handled, including some of the most high-profile trials, according to investigation findings released by the agency Friday." [0] [0] https://coloradosun.com/2024/03/08/yvonne-missy-woods-cbi-investigation/ https://coloradosun.com/2024/03/08/yvonne-missy-woods-cbi-in...
  - bflesch 2y ago
    You chime in to showcase another thing where the USA is wrong, but you oversee the point that in no way russia is comparable to this. In the article you linked, there is a criminal investigation, an audit and a re-test of evidence in order “to ensure the accuracy and completeness of its entire catalog of records because someone manipulated DNA evidence. In russia, there is no investigation, because they make up evidence against their political enemies all the time. It feels like you have some incentive to miss the elephant in the room.
- bflesch 2y ago
  The notion that the judicial system in democratic countries is in any way comparable to the judicial system in the dictatorship of russia is laughable. In democratic countries such errors with regards to forensic evidence spark news because it is so unusual. In dictatorships like russia, nobody expects forensic methods to be valid because the court verdict does not depend on evidence, it depends on your connections to the dictator.
  - asddubs 2y ago

ithkuil 2y ago

And probably there are other people in jail convicted using the same method that just were unlucky enough to not have a bulletproof alibi?

drysine 2y ago
I don't know, but it seems quite likely, unfortunately. There were quite a few other cases when fake evidence was planted by police. It's not the only problem with technology -- it's claimed that there has been over hundred cases of false DNA matches not caused by malice or processing errors.[0] In theory, DNA match must not be considered by courts as 100% accurate, but in fact it is. On the other hand, there were cases when human rights advocates or journalists were claiming that innocent people were jailed but that turned out to be false, like people getting caught on camera doing the same kind of crime again after they served their sentence. [0] https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5825384 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5825384
- asddubs 2y ago
  same with stenographs. We keep inventing new methods for the police to make up evidence.
  - drysine 2y ago
    I don't understand, could you elaborate on that?
    - asddubs 2y ago
      I apologize, I got the terms mixed up, I meant a polygraph
      - drysine 2y ago
        Yep, I got the impression that courts consider polygraph only when the results implicate the accused. Good thing that by law they cannot force you to get questioned with polygraph attached.

polygon87 2y ago

I know it’s the wrong way to think but things like this make me glad about a digital footprint… good chance I’m liking a TikTok comment or reading an HN thread at the same time as any crime, just statistically.

asddubs 2y ago
that's not going to get you off the hook. anything that could be faked via account sharing is going to be discarded (not to mention that tiktok and similar platforms will not collaborate with you to build an alibi by giving access to this data, only the police to build a case)

rainonmoon 2y ago

Grave consequences are not a rarity. Automated decision making in immigration and housing classify people with zero recourse or transparency, locking them out of a place to live (and in the case of Australia, locking them up in offshore detention for years).