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Simple answer. A chinese owned company has no such rights or protections. Free speech does not apply. The law also does not censor content (so no free speech v

Simple answer. A chinese owned company has no such rights or protections. Free speech does not apply. The law also does not censor content (so no free speech violation anyway). The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). Big difference.

concinds 2y ago
The EFF disagrees. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/01/eff-statement-us-supreme-courts-decision-uphold-tiktok-ban https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/01/eff-statement-us-supre...
- airstrike 2y ago
  The Supreme Court doesn't.
  - garbagewoman 2y ago
    The supreme court says a lot of things.
    - airstrike 2y ago
      So does the EFF, but they have no say in legal matters, so their opinion here is irrelevant, whereas the Supreme Court's opinion is final.
      - Spivak 2y ago
        Sure but even the supreme court disagrees with the supreme court. Treating their rulings as the best or canonical interpretation of a case doesn't make much sense. It's not like any interpretation is valid but there are plenty of valid ones.
        airstrike 2y ago
        By definition, the Supreme Court's decision _is_ the canonical interpretation. Whether you disagree with the decision has no bearing on the matter. And of course it makes sense, because the legal system was created by the very laws it upholds. If you think it should be different, then you'll have to convince a lot of people to change a lot of laws and probably parts of the US constitution
        tivert 2y ago
        > Treating their rulings as the best or canonical interpretation of a case doesn't make much sense. It does, because the Supreme Court's ruling is the legally binding interpretation. The EFF are just some people with an non-legally binding opinions.
        airstrike 2y ago
        It boggles the mind that this comment is being downvoted for literally stating facts. People really have their fingers in their ears with this topic.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      And what they say matters a whole lot more than what the eff says.
  - cute_boi 2y ago
    Just because Supreme court said it doesn't mean they aren't heavily biased.
    - monocularvision 2y ago
      What exactly do you mean here by using the term “biased”? In what way is the Supreme Court “biased”?
    - Fidelix 2y ago
      Yeah, and the EFF is in no way biased. at all.
garbagewoman 2y ago
This is affecting the free speech rights of US citizens directly. You might wish it was as simple as you try to portray it, but it clearly isn’t
- soerxpso 2y ago
  This is not affecting US citizens' legal free speech rights. You have the right to say what you want; you don't have the right to say it on a specific platform. You had free speech without TikTok before it existed, and you'll have the same amount of free speech if it does not exist again.
  - Spivak 2y ago
    This is exactly the simplistic framing the person you replied to is talking about. So let's take an absurd extreme. The government designates a 1x1 mile "free speech zone" in the middle of Wyoming and says you're not allowed to speak anywhere else. You have the same amount of free speech as you did before, right? Another extreme, let's say the government declared that you may speak freely but only by filling out a web form routed to Dave. Great guy. I mean they haven't technically taken away your right to speak? And someone will hear what you say. Both of these would he flagrant violations of 1A as I'm sure you'd agree. But what this means is that implicit to 1A the government has limits on how many places it can deny you speech and limits on how much they can deny you an audience. And you can't hide behind the "well it's just divestiture not a ban" because the courts aren't blind to POSIWID. So the more nuanced question is does banning TikTok meaningfully affect the ability of Americans to speak. And I think because of how large they are you could answer yes to this question. Americans know exactly what they're signing up for with their TT accounts and want to post there. TikTok but owned by an American would be legal so the platform itself isn't the issue. And saying TT can't operate in the US and actively preventing Americans from accessing it are two very different actions.
    - monocularvision 2y ago
      Actually, both of those examples might be legal (assuming the form is applying for a permit for some specific event/location). Time, place, and manner restrictions have long been upheld by the courts. What isn’t legal, or at least what requires strict scrutiny, are content restrictions.
jmholla 2y ago
> Simple answer. A chinese owned company has no such rights or protections. Free speech does not apply. The Constitution does not place limits on which people are protected by it (you don't have to be a citizen for it to apply as the founders were looking to limit the powers of their government not their citizens). And with the expansion of those protections to corporations through Citizens United, I'd be surprised if a court found that `company + foreign != person + foreign` when they've decided `company == person`. (Well not surprised by this Court.) > The law also does not censor content (so no free speech violation anyway). The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). Big difference. The rest of your comment still stands right in my eyes. National Security has often been used as a means to bypass many things enshrined by the Constitution.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  The court has never determined that corporations are people, that’s a completely unfounded meme. What they did find was that (real, human) people have certain rights that they are able to exercise by organizing into corporations.
  - iterance 2y ago
    Eh? Unless otherwise specified, corporations satisfy the definition of a person across all federal laws per 1 USC §1, which reads: "the words “person” and “whoever” include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals" That 1 USC §1 is not a typo: this copy appears in the first section of the first title of US code, on disambiguating common terms used in law.
  - hwillis 2y ago
    Totally beside the point. Verbatim from Citizens United: > The Court has thus rejected the argument that political speech of corporations or other associations should be treated differently under the First Amendment simply because such associations are not “natural persons.” https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/558/310/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/558/310/ SCOTUS held that coorporations (and more broadly "associations of people") have the same rights to free speech that any individual does.
beej71 2y ago
> The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). This is red alert talk. We need to make damned sure we know exactly what we're asking for here and that we're not giving up more than we mean to.
groggo 2y ago
I get this argument, and obviously it's not stopping people from uploading the same content other places. But isn't there (or shouldn't there be) something about not banning what people can consume? Like could the US ban aljazeera? Or banning foreign books?! And still TikTok is different, because it's about the potential for quietly manipulating or curating what is seen, even if that content is produced domestically... And even if people can use other apps, there's still a community and subcultures that are being dismantled.
russli1993 2y ago
Cool, so is all US companies in all other countries around the world then, no protections. All countries in the world, USA just showed it is perfectly fine to steal a foreign companies' asset. Let's do that to all USA companies, Apple, Amazon, Nvidia, Tesla, Boeing, Qualcomn, Intel, all of them. U know how rich you will be if you just got a piece of them? U know you could end homelessness, poverty, balance trade, stabilize your currency, elevate tax revenues, get free education and health care for your citizens, provide great jobs if you just got a piece of USA companies? Now you can! All of them can be Indian, Germany, France, UK, Poland, Brazilian, Mexican, Canadian, Kenyan, Egyptian companies. Everyone gets a piece, everyone gets them equally, everyone will benefit and be happy!

concinds 2y ago

The EFF disagrees. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/01/eff-statement-us-supreme-courts-decision-uphold-tiktok-ban https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/01/eff-statement-us-supre...

airstrike 2y ago
The Supreme Court doesn't.
- garbagewoman 2y ago
  The supreme court says a lot of things.
  - airstrike 2y ago
    So does the EFF, but they have no say in legal matters, so their opinion here is irrelevant, whereas the Supreme Court's opinion is final.
    - Spivak 2y ago
      Sure but even the supreme court disagrees with the supreme court. Treating their rulings as the best or canonical interpretation of a case doesn't make much sense. It's not like any interpretation is valid but there are plenty of valid ones.
      - airstrike 2y ago
        By definition, the Supreme Court's decision _is_ the canonical interpretation. Whether you disagree with the decision has no bearing on the matter. And of course it makes sense, because the legal system was created by the very laws it upholds. If you think it should be different, then you'll have to convince a lot of people to change a lot of laws and probably parts of the US constitution
      - tivert 2y ago
        > Treating their rulings as the best or canonical interpretation of a case doesn't make much sense. It does, because the Supreme Court's ruling is the legally binding interpretation. The EFF are just some people with an non-legally binding opinions.
        airstrike 2y ago
        It boggles the mind that this comment is being downvoted for literally stating facts. People really have their fingers in their ears with this topic.
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    And what they say matters a whole lot more than what the eff says.
- cute_boi 2y ago
  Just because Supreme court said it doesn't mean they aren't heavily biased.
  - monocularvision 2y ago
    What exactly do you mean here by using the term “biased”? In what way is the Supreme Court “biased”?
  - Fidelix 2y ago
    Yeah, and the EFF is in no way biased. at all.

garbagewoman 2y ago

This is affecting the free speech rights of US citizens directly. You might wish it was as simple as you try to portray it, but it clearly isn’t

soerxpso 2y ago
This is not affecting US citizens' legal free speech rights. You have the right to say what you want; you don't have the right to say it on a specific platform. You had free speech without TikTok before it existed, and you'll have the same amount of free speech if it does not exist again.
- Spivak 2y ago
  This is exactly the simplistic framing the person you replied to is talking about. So let's take an absurd extreme. The government designates a 1x1 mile "free speech zone" in the middle of Wyoming and says you're not allowed to speak anywhere else. You have the same amount of free speech as you did before, right? Another extreme, let's say the government declared that you may speak freely but only by filling out a web form routed to Dave. Great guy. I mean they haven't technically taken away your right to speak? And someone will hear what you say. Both of these would he flagrant violations of 1A as I'm sure you'd agree. But what this means is that implicit to 1A the government has limits on how many places it can deny you speech and limits on how much they can deny you an audience. And you can't hide behind the "well it's just divestiture not a ban" because the courts aren't blind to POSIWID. So the more nuanced question is does banning TikTok meaningfully affect the ability of Americans to speak. And I think because of how large they are you could answer yes to this question. Americans know exactly what they're signing up for with their TT accounts and want to post there. TikTok but owned by an American would be legal so the platform itself isn't the issue. And saying TT can't operate in the US and actively preventing Americans from accessing it are two very different actions.
  - monocularvision 2y ago
    Actually, both of those examples might be legal (assuming the form is applying for a permit for some specific event/location). Time, place, and manner restrictions have long been upheld by the courts. What isn’t legal, or at least what requires strict scrutiny, are content restrictions.

jmholla 2y ago

> Simple answer. A chinese owned company has no such rights or protections. Free speech does not apply. The Constitution does not place limits on which people are protected by it (you don't have to be a citizen for it to apply as the founders were looking to limit the powers of their government not their citizens). And with the expansion of those protections to corporations through Citizens United, I'd be surprised if a court found that `company + foreign != person + foreign` when they've decided `company == person`. (Well not surprised by this Court.) > The law also does not censor content (so no free speech violation anyway). The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). Big difference. The rest of your comment still stands right in my eyes. National Security has often been used as a means to bypass many things enshrined by the Constitution.

School-Cotton 2y ago
The court has never determined that corporations are people, that’s a completely unfounded meme. What they did find was that (real, human) people have certain rights that they are able to exercise by organizing into corporations.
- iterance 2y ago
  Eh? Unless otherwise specified, corporations satisfy the definition of a person across all federal laws per 1 USC §1, which reads: "the words “person” and “whoever” include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals" That 1 USC §1 is not a typo: this copy appears in the first section of the first title of US code, on disambiguating common terms used in law.
- hwillis 2y ago
  Totally beside the point. Verbatim from Citizens United: > The Court has thus rejected the argument that political speech of corporations or other associations should be treated differently under the First Amendment simply because such associations are not “natural persons.” https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/558/310/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/558/310/ SCOTUS held that coorporations (and more broadly "associations of people") have the same rights to free speech that any individual does.

beej71 2y ago

> The law simply bans the distribution of the app on marketplaces stores for reasons stated (national security). This is red alert talk. We need to make damned sure we know exactly what we're asking for here and that we're not giving up more than we mean to.

groggo 2y ago

I get this argument, and obviously it's not stopping people from uploading the same content other places. But isn't there (or shouldn't there be) something about not banning what people can consume? Like could the US ban aljazeera? Or banning foreign books?! And still TikTok is different, because it's about the potential for quietly manipulating or curating what is seen, even if that content is produced domestically... And even if people can use other apps, there's still a community and subcultures that are being dismantled.

russli1993 2y ago

Cool, so is all US companies in all other countries around the world then, no protections. All countries in the world, USA just showed it is perfectly fine to steal a foreign companies' asset. Let's do that to all USA companies, Apple, Amazon, Nvidia, Tesla, Boeing, Qualcomn, Intel, all of them. U know how rich you will be if you just got a piece of them? U know you could end homelessness, poverty, balance trade, stabilize your currency, elevate tax revenues, get free education and health care for your citizens, provide great jobs if you just got a piece of USA companies? Now you can! All of them can be Indian, Germany, France, UK, Poland, Brazilian, Mexican, Canadian, Kenyan, Egyptian companies. Everyone gets a piece, everyone gets them equally, everyone will benefit and be happy!