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> You don't see women with big breasts on ads for female hygiene products, or, indeed, anything that doesn't target mostly (or even specifically) men. That's s

> You don't see women with big breasts on ads for female hygiene products, or, indeed, anything that doesn't target mostly (or even specifically) men. That's simply not true. See http://www.genderads.com/page5/sexobject/sexobject.html http://www.genderads.com/page5/sexobject/sexobject.html for plenty of counter-examples. > A long, reasoned debate showing how intelligent and wise a woman is won't do much for a 20-second ad. Right, of course not. As I mentioned earlier, advertising is not the only medium in which this sort of objectification is prevalent. > I don't find this any more objectionable than ads using tan, muscular men to appeal to women, which I don't find objectionable at all. Again, I don't think you can simply swap genders and call it a fair analogy. Additionally, at least in my experience, the number of advertisements, music videos, etc. that use the sex appeal of female body parts for commercial purposes far outweighs the number of equivalent things using tan, muscular, and similarly exposed men for commercial purposes. > I completely agree. However, I don't see anyone defending it, people are mostly just saying "this is just childish, not sexist, and isn't that big an issue". When confronted with criticism, arguing that the subject at hand is not a big deal is defense, is it not? I'm not saying anyone's promoting more use of 0xB16B00B5 in code, but there seem to be several commenters in here saying it's fine. > If I am wrong about this, it will be precisely because I do not know how a woman would feel in this situation, so that's a bit of a moot question to ask me specifically. It's actually not moot. I was interested in how you thought a woman might react—a question only you can answer. The actual reactions of women would vary quite widely from one to the next, of course. I'm sure some would laugh it off; I'm sure some would be offended. Personally, I'd be afraid that more women than men would be uncomfortable in this situation, and I don't like the idea of a development culture that makes women feel less comfortable or welcome than men. That's why I personally find it offensive. If you think women would be just as comfortable with this as men, then I would understand why you would not find it offensive.

StavrosK 14y ago
> That's simply not true. See [...] for plenty of counter-examples. Hmm, the page of counterexamples you listed seems to be about making women feel "sexy" (it's on the ad for many of them), so it makes sense they would show "sexy" women, just like selling clothes and other items that would make men feel masculine would show buff men. > As I mentioned earlier, advertising is not the only medium in which this sort of objectification is prevalent. Hmm, which other media is it prevalent in that could display other qualities of a woman for the same purpose instead? > Again, I don't think you can simply swap genders and call it a fair analogy. I will concede that. > When confronted with criticism, arguing that the subject at hand is not a big deal is defense, is it not? I am not sure about this. "It's right and you shouldn't be offended" isn't the same as "it's wrong for different reasons and isn't a big deal anyway". > It's actually not moot. I was interested in how you thought a woman might react—a question only you can answer. Ah, okay. I answered that above, then. > That's why I personally find it offensive. If you think women would be just as comfortable with this as men, then I would understand why you would not find it offensive. I think this is the crux of the issue. I think women wouldn't have a problem with it, so that's why I don't have a problem with it. Maybe it's societal, though, as we can't assume the US technology sector culture is universal and the same as in other countries (I live in Greece).
- georgefox 14y ago
  > Hmm, the page of counterexamples you listed seems to be about making women feel "sexy" (it's on the ad for many of them), so it makes sense they would show "sexy" women, just like selling clothes and other items that would make men feel masculine would show buff men. That's true. Many of those examples are for products designed to make women more sexy, but I'd argue that advertisements like this are much more common than advertisements with buff men that are supposed to make men feel more sexy. I think many people would agree that, at least in American culture, there's more pressure on women to be sexy than there is on men. This is part of the problem, if you ask me. > Hmm, which other media is it prevalent in that could display other qualities of a woman for the same purpose instead? You see this in pretty much any sort of pop culture. Music videos (whether the performers are male or female) are generally littered with imagery of young women as sex objects. Even 24-hour news stations have been criticized for using news anchors in risque clothing—something that doesn't happen with male anchors. Several tabloids employ the concept of the "Page 3 girl." I'm not aware of such a thing with men (certainly not with the same prevalence). Outside of media, you see the same issues reflected in culture. I'm having difficulty finding statistics on these, but stripping and prostitution are at least perceived (and portrayed in media) as predominantly female industries with male clientele. The concept of the woman as a sex object is practically everywhere. > I am not sure about this. "It's right and you shouldn't be offended" isn't the same as "it's wrong for different reasons and isn't a big deal anyway". True. That said, there do seem to be some comments here that imply no offense should be taken as well as many that merely downplay the issue as not a big deal. > I think this is the crux of the issue. I think women wouldn't have a problem with it, so that's why I don't have a problem with it. Maybe it's societal, though, as we can't assume the US technology sector culture is universal and the same as in other countries (I live in Greece). I agree: this is the crux of the issue. I plead total ignorance on Greek culture and can only make guesses as to the hypothetical reactions of American women. Nevertheless, I think it's best to err on the side of sensitivity, especially in a field so criticized for its gender gap.
  - StavrosK 14y ago
    > advertisements like this are much more common than advertisements with buff men that are supposed to make men feel more sexy. Maybe women are just a larger market. I can't comment. > I think many people would agree that, at least in American culture, there's more pressure on women to be sexy than there is on men. Again, maybe the causation is the other way. I can't comment. > I'm not aware of such a thing with men (certainly not with the same prevalence). I'll give you that. This is, again, probably addressing the fact that the target market are men. > stripping and prostitution are at least perceived (and portrayed in media) as predominantly female industries with male clientele. The concept of the woman as a sex object is practically everywhere. I'm not sure this follows. They're perceived as predominantly female because men are more overt about (or more open to) paying for sex. Women aren't as interested in that, for whatever reason. Male strippers/prostitutes do exist, after all. This isssue is too complicated to discuss on HN, sadly. I did greatly enjoy the discussion, however!

StavrosK 14y ago

> That's simply not true. See [...] for plenty of counter-examples. Hmm, the page of counterexamples you listed seems to be about making women feel "sexy" (it's on the ad for many of them), so it makes sense they would show "sexy" women, just like selling clothes and other items that would make men feel masculine would show buff men. > As I mentioned earlier, advertising is not the only medium in which this sort of objectification is prevalent. Hmm, which other media is it prevalent in that could display other qualities of a woman for the same purpose instead? > Again, I don't think you can simply swap genders and call it a fair analogy. I will concede that. > When confronted with criticism, arguing that the subject at hand is not a big deal is defense, is it not? I am not sure about this. "It's right and you shouldn't be offended" isn't the same as "it's wrong for different reasons and isn't a big deal anyway". > It's actually not moot. I was interested in how you thought a woman might react—a question only you can answer. Ah, okay. I answered that above, then. > That's why I personally find it offensive. If you think women would be just as comfortable with this as men, then I would understand why you would not find it offensive. I think this is the crux of the issue. I think women wouldn't have a problem with it, so that's why I don't have a problem with it. Maybe it's societal, though, as we can't assume the US technology sector culture is universal and the same as in other countries (I live in Greece).

georgefox 14y ago
> Hmm, the page of counterexamples you listed seems to be about making women feel "sexy" (it's on the ad for many of them), so it makes sense they would show "sexy" women, just like selling clothes and other items that would make men feel masculine would show buff men. That's true. Many of those examples are for products designed to make women more sexy, but I'd argue that advertisements like this are much more common than advertisements with buff men that are supposed to make men feel more sexy. I think many people would agree that, at least in American culture, there's more pressure on women to be sexy than there is on men. This is part of the problem, if you ask me. > Hmm, which other media is it prevalent in that could display other qualities of a woman for the same purpose instead? You see this in pretty much any sort of pop culture. Music videos (whether the performers are male or female) are generally littered with imagery of young women as sex objects. Even 24-hour news stations have been criticized for using news anchors in risque clothing—something that doesn't happen with male anchors. Several tabloids employ the concept of the "Page 3 girl." I'm not aware of such a thing with men (certainly not with the same prevalence). Outside of media, you see the same issues reflected in culture. I'm having difficulty finding statistics on these, but stripping and prostitution are at least perceived (and portrayed in media) as predominantly female industries with male clientele. The concept of the woman as a sex object is practically everywhere. > I am not sure about this. "It's right and you shouldn't be offended" isn't the same as "it's wrong for different reasons and isn't a big deal anyway". True. That said, there do seem to be some comments here that imply no offense should be taken as well as many that merely downplay the issue as not a big deal. > I think this is the crux of the issue. I think women wouldn't have a problem with it, so that's why I don't have a problem with it. Maybe it's societal, though, as we can't assume the US technology sector culture is universal and the same as in other countries (I live in Greece). I agree: this is the crux of the issue. I plead total ignorance on Greek culture and can only make guesses as to the hypothetical reactions of American women. Nevertheless, I think it's best to err on the side of sensitivity, especially in a field so criticized for its gender gap.
- StavrosK 14y ago
  > advertisements like this are much more common than advertisements with buff men that are supposed to make men feel more sexy. Maybe women are just a larger market. I can't comment. > I think many people would agree that, at least in American culture, there's more pressure on women to be sexy than there is on men. Again, maybe the causation is the other way. I can't comment. > I'm not aware of such a thing with men (certainly not with the same prevalence). I'll give you that. This is, again, probably addressing the fact that the target market are men. > stripping and prostitution are at least perceived (and portrayed in media) as predominantly female industries with male clientele. The concept of the woman as a sex object is practically everywhere. I'm not sure this follows. They're perceived as predominantly female because men are more overt about (or more open to) paying for sex. Women aren't as interested in that, for whatever reason. Male strippers/prostitutes do exist, after all. This isssue is too complicated to discuss on HN, sadly. I did greatly enjoy the discussion, however!